(January 19, 2017 at 1:45 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(January 18, 2017 at 9:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: Why God's message should reach you?  
You are the one who got to reach him not the other way around.
Suppose you like someone.
Do you expect that that someone should come to you without you having done nothing to conquer him or her first?
You never though of that Ast, did you?  

And what about God doing horrible things?
Have you ever thought that people in previous lives did horrible things to other people so the karma law apply to them?  

The jackassery is stomach-turning. Virtually every atheist has started out as a believer (against their will, in retrospect) and while the sincerity varied, they would all likely have begged in one form or another for such knowledge and relationships with their various deities du jour, and got not so much as a celestial fart in the face. Again, if there is a god that wants to communicate anything at all to any of us, he's doing the most inept imaginable job of it, and yet somehow believers want to take the blame for it and also cast it upon the rest of us (not unlike the dogshit sin concept, so they can reduce their own self-imposed guilt by spreading it to the rest of us who don't share that taint). Get a fucking clue.

There is a problem Ast.
Some people may well have the desire to know God but at the same time they also have the desire for something else and that make the whole thing unattainable.
Suppose you like a particular person and at the same time you also like a second person.
Don't you think that as the person that you like once knowing that you also like somebody else wouldn't
be upset with you?
God can read your mind and know very well what you are after so there is no chances that you can trick him.
If you are after idols (materialism) then you have no chances to know God even if you would like to know him.  

Quote:Karma is also a horseshit, utterly immoral concept with no basis in practical reality nor in actually reinforcing a good moral framework, it's nothing more than a dressed-up carrot and stick enticement and threat shtick with a pleasant-sounding name that makes people forget about the heaven-hell dichotomy. Fuck karma in its left ear.

Wrong again Ast.
Karma is a parallelism of the physical law that say.........for every action there got to be an equal and
opposite reaction.
What apply on earth also apply in the astral realty.  

Quote:As for god being removed from the equation by karma, let me ask you this: If you're selected to execute someone (or in this case, you've chosen to be that person), do you feel any guilt whatsoever or none at all? If there is a god in charge of karma and it feels no guilt for being the arbiter of this insane system, that is an unworthy agent to be participating in it. And if it does feel guilt, the system would become unbalanced and cease to function properly because of the bias it would have to form as a result of that compounded guilt. None of your petty ideas have even an ankle to stand on.

Wrong again Ast.
It doesn't work like this.
Nobody is chosen to be the executor.
The last thing that I would like to do would be to execute someone.
Executors would build a terrible karma for themselves.
Those who are bound to die because karma apply to them die not by executors but by different people who commit a crime.
In this way bad karma keep on affecting different people and people who have to experience punishment do not have to be killed necessary.
They may experience punishment in a myriad of different ways from getting sick to having all sort of accidents or being born with all sort of problems.  

Just goes to show, the theists will come up with any little catchphrase, quote or saying to justify the logically unsound bullshit their religion puts forth.

(January 6, 2017 at 8:07 am)chimp3 Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 4:35 pm)Godschild Wrote: I've known many pastors but,not the one in the OP,  some of them have made comments they wish the could have taken back. Most of the time they know exactly what they're saying and speaking about most are well educated and take seriously their calling. This is why I said a mistake was possibly made. I wanted to open up the possibility of a discussion on what was really said, not one where people call others idiots. I could have done that from the start but where would that have gotten the subject. Guess I should have known that name calling would be the result anyway, it seems that's the typical response here.

GC

I sat for a hundred or so sermons by this local Pentecostal preacher ( an ailing family member wanted company). He was always going on about the "fields of corn" as in 2Chronicles 31:5.
He would yell and stomp about how wonderful it must have been to walk through the 7ft tall stalks of corn and see those ears bursting with plump kernels. Obviously he did not know that Maize is a New World crop and corn and old English word for grain. Does this make him an idiot? Yes, for two reasons....

One : He is the same age as me. I was taught this fact in elementary school. He was too busy talking to the Holy Ghost to pay attention in school.

Two : His claim and that of his sheepish flock is that he has an "anointment" to preach. If your authority to preach comes from a higher power you have a larger duty to be accurate. He is an idiot.

Isaac and Esau had corn in Genesis 27:28 (KJV) = "27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed:

28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee."

Maybe they were in Mexico?

(January 20, 2017 at 10:28 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 1:45 pm)Astonished Wrote: The jackassery is stomach-turning. Virtually every atheist has started out as a believer (against their will, in retrospect) and while the sincerity varied, they would all likely have begged in one form or another for such knowledge and relationships with their various deities du jour, and got not so much as a celestial fart in the face. Again, if there is a god that wants to communicate anything at all to any of us, he's doing the most inept imaginable job of it, and yet somehow believers want to take the blame for it and also cast it upon the rest of us (not unlike the dogshit sin concept, so they can reduce their own self-imposed guilt by spreading it to the rest of us who don't share that taint). Get a fucking clue.

There is a problem Ast.
Some people may well have the desire to know God but at the same time they also have the desire for something else and that make the whole thing unattainable.
Suppose you like a particular person and at the same time you also like a second person.
Don't you think that as the person that you like once knowing that you also like somebody else wouldn't
be upset with you?
God can read your mind and know very well what you are after so there is no chances that you can trick him.
If you are after idols (materialism) then you have no chances to know God even if you would like to know him.  

Quote:Karma is also a horseshit, utterly immoral concept with no basis in practical reality nor in actually reinforcing a good moral framework, it's nothing more than a dressed-up carrot and stick enticement and threat shtick with a pleasant-sounding name that makes people forget about the heaven-hell dichotomy. Fuck karma in its left ear.

Wrong again Ast.
Karma is a parallelism of the physical law that say.........for every action there got to be an equal and
opposite reaction.
What apply on earth also apply in the astral realty.  

Quote:As for god being removed from the equation by karma, let me ask you this: If you're selected to execute someone (or in this case, you've chosen to be that person), do you feel any guilt whatsoever or none at all? If there is a god in charge of karma and it feels no guilt for being the arbiter of this insane system, that is an unworthy agent to be participating in it. And if it does feel guilt, the system would become unbalanced and cease to function properly because of the bias it would have to form as a result of that compounded guilt. None of your petty ideas have even an ankle to stand on.

Wrong again Ast.
It doesn't work like this.
Nobody is chosen to be the executor.
The last thing that I would like to do would be to execute someone.
Executors would build a terrible karma for themselves.
Those who are bound to die because karma apply to them die not by executors but by different people who commit a crime.
In this way bad karma keep on affecting different people and people who have to experience punishment do not have to be killed necessary.
They may experience punishment in a myriad of different ways from getting sick to having all sort of accidents or being born with all sort of problems.  

The only way you're actually not utterly wrong is if all of these rules and such were communicated clearly and effectively and without a possibility of doubt from the very beginning. If your deity du jour doesn't at least meet that obligation, fuck that deity in its left ear and any of its rules can be shoved firmly up its ass. Besides which, you're forgetting that the matter of choice is not a factor in my executioner analogy, just as theists claim our ultimate fate (or the participation in the adventure of existence) was our choice - no it fucking wasn't. So if you were given no choice, you have to acknowledge the question and not tap-dance around it the way you've been trained to like a circus chimp, you coward.

(January 23, 2017 at 9:33 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(January 20, 2017 at 10:28 am)Little Rik Wrote: There is a problem Ast.
Some people may well have the desire to know God but at the same time they also have the desire for something else and that make the whole thing unattainable.
Suppose you like a particular person and at the same time you also like a second person.
Don't you think that as the person that you like once knowing that you also like somebody else wouldn't
be upset with you?
God can read your mind and know very well what you are after so there is no chances that you can trick him.
If you are after idols (materialism) then you have no chances to know God even if you would like to know him.  




Wrong again Ast.
Karma is a parallelism of the physical law that say.........for every action there got to be an equal and
opposite reaction.
What apply on earth also apply in the astral realty.  




Wrong again Ast.
It doesn't work like this.
Nobody is chosen to be the executor.
The last thing that I would like to do would be to execute someone.
Executors would build a terrible karma for themselves.
Those who are bound to die because karma apply to them die not by executors but by different people who commit a crime.
In this way bad karma keep on affecting different people and people who have to experience punishment do not have to be killed necessary.
They may experience punishment in a myriad of different ways from getting sick to having all sort of accidents or being born with all sort of problems.  

The only way you're actually not utterly wrong is if all of these rules and such were communicated clearly and effectively and without a possibility of doubt from the very beginning. If your deity du jour doesn't at least meet that obligation, fuck that deity in its left ear and any of its rules can be shoved firmly up its ass. Besides which, you're forgetting that the matter of choice is not a factor in my executioner analogy, just as theists claim our ultimate fate (or the participation in the adventure of existence) was our choice - no it fucking wasn't. So if you were given no choice, you have to acknowledge the question and not tap-dance around it the way you've been trained to like a circus chimp, you coward.

Calm down Ast with offensive language.
Nobody force you to believe anything.
We are both here in this forum to have a chat about things of interest.
Nothing to get angry about but let me say my point of view on some issues.

1) God doesn't have any obligation with anybody.
The game of creation is his game and nobody has the right to challenge that like it or not.
Suppose you dream about a tiger or anything else.
Do you think that that tiger got any right to interfere with your dream?
You can do what you like with your dream and that is fair.
The best way to deal with that if you are a tiger is to go back ASAP into the creator mind so you can be
the one in charge once again and not the object of a dream.

Humans can do this but it require to understand how the system works and by floating in the materialistic world that is very very difficult that is why a proper system to deal with that problem is needed.
By whining and getting angry as you do that is impossible.

2) Theists as well as atheists always claim a lot of things.
I am not responsible for what other theists may say.

Have a lovely day.  

(January 4, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 3, 2017 at 11:54 pm)Astonished Wrote: Now Imagine God woke everyone up from the matrix showed them around the real world and all he has done and all he has planned for each of us, and then put them back in the matrix world we created. Could you continue to live this life knowing it was false? that nothing you did here really mattered? Could you continue to be who you are now with out trying to hide yourself under 'good deeds?'

Good (I was going to say "God" but I won't) whatever, the answer is fuck yes.

(January 24, 2017 at 9:33 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(January 23, 2017 at 9:33 pm)Astonished Wrote: The only way you're actually not utterly wrong is if all of these rules and such were communicated clearly and effectively and without a possibility of doubt from the very beginning. If your deity du jour doesn't at least meet that obligation, fuck that deity in its left ear and any of its rules can be shoved firmly up its ass. Besides which, you're forgetting that the matter of choice is not a factor in my executioner analogy, just as theists claim our ultimate fate (or the participation in the adventure of existence) was our choice - no it fucking wasn't. So if you were given no choice, you have to acknowledge the question and not tap-dance around it the way you've been trained to like a circus chimp, you coward.

Calm down Ast with offensive language.
Nobody force you to believe anything.
We are both here in this forum to have a chat about things of interest.
Nothing to get angry about but let me say my point of view on some issues.

1) God doesn't have any obligation with anybody.
The game of creation is his game and nobody has the right to challenge that like it or not.
Suppose you dream about a tiger or anything else.
Do you think that that tiger got any right to interfere with your dream?
You can do what you like with your dream and that is fair.
The best way to deal with that if you are a tiger is to go back ASAP into the creator mind so you can be
the one in charge once again and not the object of a dream.

Humans can do this but it require to understand how the system works and by floating in the materialistic world that is very very difficult that is why a proper system to deal with that problem is needed.
By whining and getting angry as you do that is impossible.

2) Theists as well as atheists always claim a lot of things.
I am not responsible for what other theists may say.

Have a lovely day.  

Of course, now you're going to back-pedal so it doesn't look like you ever said you had all the answers because you're so special. Or that it's our fault that god doesn't care to communicate with us. Even if the world is his dream as you state, if there is any desire to interact in any way with his dream and/or impose certain laws or require a level of devotion, that it would not be communicated effectively is a testament to how woefully bewilderingly stupid that god is, and no such being with a level of intellect far below that of its own creations (that in and of itself should really tell you something) could possibly concoct the design of the universe and its various physical attributes. If you're going to be reasonable and say that it is impossible for, if there is a deistic creator deity, anyone to possibly conceive of its motivations, desires or presence, I might actually say I respect you. But everything you've said so far makes you sound like a dishonest hypocrite and so unless you're really going to surprise me, I'm suspending judgment til I see it. There, no foul language and perfectly civil. Happy now? This doesn't have a tenth of the emotion I'm feeling talking to this brick wall you've erected around your sense of honesty and integrity.

(January 27, 2017 at 1:39 am)Astonished Wrote:

(January 24, 2017 at 9:33 am)Little Rik Wrote: Calm down Ast with offensive language.
Nobody force you to believe anything.
We are both here in this forum to have a chat about things of interest.
Nothing to get angry about but let me say my point of view on some issues.

1) God doesn't have any obligation with anybody.
The game of creation is his game and nobody has the right to challenge that like it or not.
Suppose you dream about a tiger or anything else.
Do you think that that tiger got any right to interfere with your dream?
You can do what you like with your dream and that is fair.
The best way to deal with that if you are a tiger is to go back ASAP into the creator mind so you can be
the one in charge once again and not the object of a dream.

Humans can do this but it require to understand how the system works and by floating in the materialistic world that is very very difficult that is why a proper system to deal with that problem is needed.
By whining and getting angry as you do that is impossible.

2) Theists as well as atheists always claim a lot of things.
I am not responsible for what other theists may say.

Have a lovely day.  

Of course, now you're going to back-pedal so it doesn't look like you ever said you had all the answers because you're so special. Or that it's our fault that god doesn't care to communicate with us. Even if the world is his dream as you state, if there is any desire to interact in any way with his dream and/or impose certain laws or require a level of devotion, that it would not be communicated effectively is a testament to how woefully bewilderingly stupid that god is, and no such being with a level of intellect far below that of its own creations (that in and of itself should really tell you something) could possibly concoct the design of the universe and its various physical attributes. If you're going to be reasonable and say that it is impossible for, if there is a deistic creator deity, anyone to possibly conceive of its motivations, desires or presence, I might actually say I respect you. But everything you've said so far makes you sound like a dishonest hypocrite and so unless you're really going to surprise me, I'm suspending judgment til I see it. There, no foul language and perfectly civil. Happy now? This doesn't have a tenth of the emotion I'm feeling talking to this brick wall you've erected around your sense of honesty and integrity.

Your problem Ast is that you can not grasp the motivations why God does or doesn't something.
You keep on imply that God (if exist) should communicate but to understand why he (she) doesn't communicate with everybody you should also understand how his game works and you do not know that.

Animals follow the instinct so they are driven by that force towards higher degrees of consciousness.
That means towards human life but humans have already got enough degree of consciousness so instinct
play very little importance.
Now humans are not driven by that instinct force anymore and therefore the free will apply in the good or the bad.
Because of that free will God keep out of sight in order to not interfere in their decisions.
Only when humans understand God cosmic game God show up once again and as directions to proceed
are needed God is always there to teach.
This of course is only valid for those who are motivated to reach higher degree of spirituality not for those
which the materialistic game play an important role in their lives.  

(January 27, 2017 at 4:17 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(January 27, 2017 at 1:39 am)Astonished Wrote: Of course, now you're going to back-pedal so it doesn't look like you ever said you had all the answers because you're so special. Or that it's our fault that god doesn't care to communicate with us. Even if the world is his dream as you state, if there is any desire to interact in any way with his dream and/or impose certain laws or require a level of devotion, that it would not be communicated effectively is a testament to how woefully bewilderingly stupid that god is, and no such being with a level of intellect far below that of its own creations (that in and of itself should really tell you something) could possibly concoct the design of the universe and its various physical attributes. If you're going to be reasonable and say that it is impossible for, if there is a deistic creator deity, anyone to possibly conceive of its motivations, desires or presence, I might actually say I respect you. But everything you've said so far makes you sound like a dishonest hypocrite and so unless you're really going to surprise me, I'm suspending judgment til I see it. There, no foul language and perfectly civil. Happy now? This doesn't have a tenth of the emotion I'm feeling talking to this brick wall you've erected around your sense of honesty and integrity.

Your problem Ast is that you can not grasp the motivations why God does or doesn't something.
You keep on imply that God (if exist) should communicate but to understand why he (she) doesn't communicate with everybody you should also understand how his game works and you do not know that.

Animals follow the instinct so they are driven by that force towards higher degrees of consciousness.
That means towards human life but humans have already got enough degree of consciousness so instinct
play very little importance.
Now humans are not driven by that instinct force anymore and therefore the free will apply in the good or the bad.
Because of that free will God keep out of sight in order to not interfere in their decisions.
Only when humans understand God cosmic game God show up once again and as directions to proceed
are needed God is always there to teach.
This of course is only valid for those who are motivated to reach higher degree of spirituality not for those
which the materialistic game play an important role in their lives.  

You're the only one here who's not capable of grasping...practically anything being said here, really. You are a liar and a hypocrite by telling me I don't understand how this works, and you're denigrating yourself and your faith by calling it a game, so stop doing my job for me. Atheists statistically know way more about religions and their holy texts than the actual believers and you are living proof of this. Facts are inconvenient that way, aren't they?

Anyone who isn't a deist is lying when they say they can know anything about their deity. Period. Your holy books are absolutely useless for anything, let alone giving insight into the characteristics of deities, and your spiritual experiences are natural phenomena of psychology. You're claiming to have god's phone number and giving the rest of us the finger telling us we're not good enough to deserve it. You have absolutely no conception of how condescending, arrogant and insulting that is, even if your point is that you're completely full of shit.

Free will is not in any way infringed upon by gods making themselves and their wills known to people. How is it fair to judge someone for failing to play a game by the rules when the rules are unknown? You don't have an answer for this, no religion has any answer for this, it's all excuses, and pathetic ones that make you look mentally slow when you repeat them with no further contemplation whatsoever. I made a thread about how unbelievably stupid it is to think that free will could in any way be affected negatively by having the clearest possible message from a creator and supervisor. If anything free will is only damaged by the anarchic chaos created by this contradictory and demonstrably false set of ideologies. Without full access to the information, decisions cannot be made with full consent and when you remove consent you get...well, rape comes to mind. But I doubt you can make the relatively simple mental leap there.

No creator is doing any favors to their creation by keeping them completely in the dark or letting them try to figure it out on their own, or giving the message to one or just few fallible humans who will intentionally distort or suffer from memory imperfection or have to put selective interpretation upon? I mean, that's inviting the 'power corrupts' thing to rear its ugly head, and the god of the bible is the epitome of power corrupting, hence his character as a bloodthirsty barbarian. Any action done in the name of a creator is upon the head of the creator if it leads to negative consequences and they failed to intervene and prove that such is not their will when that would literally be the only possible way to convince the person that their convictions are simply not true. Just saying that god has a get out of jail free card for being a negligent, uncaring asshole isn't an answer, and only makes you share the taint of how horrible your master is because one can never tell when you're going to start emulating them because of something you believe without a good reason and which can literally justify anything because it excludes rationality.

So instead of trying to come up with more laughable excuses for irrefutable points against your theism, how about you actually exercise some critical thinking and concede a few points? Or is the thought of being honest utterly repugnant to you? Honestly, I'm asking. I have no idea what your mental processes are like with all this nonsense spewing forth.

(January 27, 2017 at 11:59 am)Astonished Wrote:

(January 27, 2017 at 4:17 am)Little Rik Wrote: Your problem Ast is that you can not grasp the motivations why God does or doesn't something.
You keep on imply that God (if exist) should communicate but to understand why he (she) doesn't communicate with everybody you should also understand how his game works and you do not know that.

Animals follow the instinct so they are driven by that force towards higher degrees of consciousness.
That means towards human life but humans have already got enough degree of consciousness so instinct
play very little importance.
Now humans are not driven by that instinct force anymore and therefore the free will apply in the good or the bad.
Because of that free will God keep out of sight in order to not interfere in their decisions.
Only when humans understand God cosmic game God show up once again and as directions to proceed
are needed God is always there to teach.
This of course is only valid for those who are motivated to reach higher degree of spirituality not for those
which the materialistic game play an important role in their lives.  

You're the only one here who's not capable of grasping...practically anything being said here, really. You are a liar and a hypocrite by telling me I don't understand how this works, and you're denigrating yourself and your faith by calling it a game, so stop doing my job for me. Atheists statistically know way more about religions and their holy texts than the actual believers and you are living proof of this. Facts are inconvenient that way, aren't they?

Anyone who isn't a deist is lying when they say they can know anything about their deity. Period. Your holy books are absolutely useless for anything, let alone giving insight into the characteristics of deities, and your spiritual experiences are natural phenomena of psychology. You're claiming to have god's phone number and giving the rest of us the finger telling us we're not good enough to deserve it. You have absolutely no conception of how condescending, arrogant and insulting that is, even if your point is that you're completely full of shit.

Free will is not in any way infringed upon by gods making themselves and their wills known to people. How is it fair to judge someone for failing to play a game by the rules when the rules are unknown? You don't have an answer for this, no religion has any answer for this, it's all excuses, and pathetic ones that make you look mentally slow when you repeat them with no further contemplation whatsoever. I made a thread about how unbelievably stupid it is to think that free will could in any way be affected negatively by having the clearest possible message from a creator and supervisor. If anything free will is only damaged by the anarchic chaos created by this contradictory and demonstrably false set of ideologies. Without full access to the information, decisions cannot be made with full consent and when you remove consent you get...well, rape comes to mind. But I doubt you can make the relatively simple mental leap there.

No creator is doing any favors to their creation by keeping them completely in the dark or letting them try to figure it out on their own, or giving the message to one or just few fallible humans who will intentionally distort or suffer from memory imperfection or have to put selective interpretation upon? I mean, that's inviting the 'power corrupts' thing to rear its ugly head, and the god of the bible is the epitome of power corrupting, hence his character as a bloodthirsty barbarian. Any action done in the name of a creator is upon the head of the creator if it leads to negative consequences and they failed to intervene and prove that such is not their will when that would literally be the only possible way to convince the person that their convictions are simply not true. Just saying that god has a get out of jail free card for being a negligent, uncaring asshole isn't an answer, and only makes you share the taint of how horrible your master is because one can never tell when you're going to start emulating them because of something you believe without a good reason and which can literally justify anything because it excludes rationality.

So instead of trying to come up with more laughable excuses for irrefutable points against your theism, how about you actually exercise some critical thinking and concede a few points? Or is the thought of being honest utterly repugnant to you? Honestly, I'm asking. I have no idea what your mental processes are like with all this nonsense spewing forth.

When I say..........not for those which the materialistic game play an important role in their lives.....
I mean anyone whose materialistic game play an important role in their lives not just atheists.
Take Trump.
He is a theist and yet he is stuck in the materialistic game.

One more thing Ast.
To know what is good or bad you don't really need to know that from God although God would be more clear regard that.
By doing certain things you feel good and by doing bad things you feel bad.
The problem is getting more complicated when a false sense of pleasure come from doing bad things
like in the case of a thief that is happy when he steal something but if you keep your reasoning under control you can't go wrong.


And last about God that suppose to keep us in the dark.
It is a natural process that plants and animals follow the instinct while humans use mainly the free will.
God act like a father that guide his kids until they grow up.
Once they grow up is up to them to work out how to live in the good or the bad.
Animals are like kids that by following the instinct follow God wishes but as soon as their consciousness grow up and they reincarnate into humans God stop pushing them to higher form of consciousness.
Now is up to them to sort out what is good that help them to climb higher or the bad that push back down into the animal life.
However if you are smart you can bypass this uncertainly by asking for help.
If you act in sincerity the teacher will show up for sure and everything will work out the right way.