(March 23, 2017 at 12:17 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 23, 2017 at 12:11 am)Jesster Wrote: You missed it.

If you are subjective, who you are as a person is not real.
And if you are objective, it must have an objective basis...a universal objective basis....which you are not.

So if you are real, then an objective judge and perceive to who you are is real.

One thing we know about ourselves is that we and others don't fully know ourselves while we are defined by perception.

This means there is a being who sees us as we are.

This is bollocks, MK. Regardless of what 'defined by perception' means, we are a product of our brains, that makes the 'who' of what we are a subjective reality. Contrary to your claims elsewhere, you are the one who is clinging to a set of unsupported beliefs. You're just too enamored with your own private truths to acknowledge it.

(March 23, 2017 at 12:32 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The soul is obvious. It's manifest. Most cultures in the past believed in it not because they were stupid or anything like that.

It's because it's perceived and obvious.

Then demonstrating it ought to be trivially simple.

(March 23, 2017 at 8:55 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Regardless of what 'defined by perception' means, we are a product of our brains, that makes the 'who' of what we are a subjective reality,

If who we are is subjective,  we are not real in the sense we think we are. We all believe no matter how far away our perception of ourselves is from who we truly are, that there is a real us, behind it all.  There is no doubt a subjective perception who we are, in the sense, but none the less, we truly exist aside from that subjective perception that DOES NOT define us, though it may be a factor to who objective are.

You take that away and make us with no real true selves and make us be simply what we subjectively see ourselves to be, the result would be we aren't real in the sense we humans believe we are.  Not only that, but every foundation of that perception will have no basis. We won't even know if we have true value or it's just some magical thinking created by evolution.

We won't know there is any true language to love and morality or are going with the flow and there is only commonalities between cultures because certain things work and are necessary.

Our intentions behind our actions, we mostly are blind to it.  The praise or condemnation of our beliefs, etc.

We won't know if there is any praise in will or strength or just halting to nothing.

Without God, all foundations break off from what we are and who we are.

If there is a TRUE us, then we are objective.  If there is no such thing, but just a subjective perception created by a brain that came to exist and that decays and has no authority on anyone nor ourselves, then there is nothing really.

We can only create purpose believing that either we or others or something is of value. That we value that goal.

And our value of who we are and purpose are interlinked.

We seek purpose but God is the goal that we constantly seek. He is never reached and purpose is ever evolving.

When we seek purpose in other than him, we've lowered the bar, and we most probably made ourselves or others idols in our hearts.

Now this can be said to be appeal to consequence, but it's not. It's because we know we have true worth inherently. We know it as children and we know it now.

We know we are to be loved and valued, and that we have potential. We know that potential is not simply what we tell ourselves we can become or what we are.

There is higher calling in all this but you want to call all foundations of knowledges ourselves, which speaks of not only of love and appreciation of ourselves, but of others, to be without basis.

The truth is what is without basis is disbelief in God. It doesn't make sense to disbelieve in God in any time with any human. He is linked to reality and we cannot separate from his vision.

---

(March 23, 2017 at 9:58 am)Stimbo Wrote:

(March 23, 2017 at 12:32 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The soul is obvious. It's manifest. Most cultures in the past believed in it not because they were stupid or anything like that.

It's because it's perceived and obvious.

Then demonstrating it ought to be trivially simple.

There is a true you. Done.

---

(March 23, 2017 at 12:18 am)Jesster Wrote:

(March 23, 2017 at 12:17 am)MysticKnight Wrote: If you are subjective, who you are as a person is not real.
And if you are objective, it must have an objective basis...a universal objective basis....which you are not.

So if you are real, then an objective judge and perceive to who you are is real.

One thing we know about ourselves is that we and others don't fully know ourselves while we are defined by perception.

This means there is a being who sees us as we are.

What is more so is whatever value we have get's it's value relative to that being, which we cannot see, because it's absolute judgment and value.


If you are bothered by rambling and uneloquent way of putting things...I suggest you give God and his chosen ones a chance, his holy book and those tasked to explain it. Don't accept them right away but if guidance is to be achieved and sight is to be gained, your best bet is God.

So research religion, try to discover who you truly are, and search that guidance through the guides appointed to lead you and who you should follow while you should not follow yourself in your little knowledge nor others who you can never know are guided unless proven by God they are (which he only does regarding the reminders and the families of the reminders).

The act of judging is using personal subjectivity. I exist regardless of someone else's feelings about it.

Judgment and who you are is interlinked. And this is why if there is a true you, there is a perfect objective judgement to who you are.

Who sees you as you truly are, yourself or God?

(March 24, 2017 at 10:07 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Judgment and who you are is interlinked. And this is why if there is a true you, there is a perfect objective judgement to who you are.

Bald assertion with no evidence. Next.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:07 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Who sees you as you truly are, yourself or God?

I have no reason to believe a god exists, so that one's out. I don't feel the need to assert that anyone sees me as I truly am anyway, so this is just another dumb question. Let's go with option C: neither.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:17 am)Jesster Wrote: Bald assertion with no evidence. Next.

"who" and judgment is interlinked. This is self-evident, but we can discuss it.
At the end every argument is going to come down to axioms.
But I believe this is obvious. Your states of who you been, your past actions to now, they aren't piled up to you physically.  The past is gone, it no longer exists.
Good and evil require judegement. Good and evil are part of who you are.
We can discuss this premise if you like, but nothing of who you are is not subject to judgment.

---

Quote: I have no reason to believe a god exists, so that one's out. I don't feel the need to assert that anyone sees me as I truly am anyway, so this is just another dumb question. Let's go with option C: neither.

Then there is no real you!!

(March 24, 2017 at 10:07 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 23, 2017 at 8:55 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Regardless of what 'defined by perception' means, we are a product of our brains, that makes the 'who' of what we are a subjective reality,

. . . . . .

Now this can be said to be appeal to consequence, but it's not.

Yes it is.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:07 am)MysticKnight Wrote: It's because we know we have true worth inherently. We know it as children and we know it now.

Got any evidence besides your bare assertion here?

(March 24, 2017 at 10:07 am)MysticKnight Wrote: We know we are to be loved and valued, and that we have potential. We know that potential is not simply what we tell ourselves we can become or what we are.

There is higher calling in all this but you want to call all foundations of knowledges ourselves, which speaks of not only of love and appreciation of ourselves, but of others, to be without basis.

Love and value are not invalidated by subjectivity. You're essentially arguing that these phenomenon need to be transcendent to be real, and that they can only be transcendent if there is an eternal standard in God. This is an argument from ignorance; you can't see how these phenomenon can be transcendent without God, therefore God. Well that's a fallacious argument. And it's easily dismissed on that basis.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:07 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The truth is what is without basis is disbelief in God. It doesn't make sense to disbelieve in God in any time with any human. He is linked to reality and we cannot separate from his vision.

Nonsense.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:20 am)MysticKnight Wrote: "who" and judgment is interlinked. This is self-evident, but we can discuss it.
At the end every argument is going to come down to axioms.
But I believe this is obvious. Your states of who you been, your past actions to now, they aren't piled up to you physically.  The past is gone, it no longer exists.
Good and evil require judegement. Good and evil are part of who you are.
We can discuss this premise if you like, but nothing of who you are is not subject to judgment.

Just because you claim something is self-evident does not mean it is. Why do you feel like this has any chance of convincing me of anything? I've already told you what will convince me, and you've ignored it. You might as well be speaking word salad at this point for all I'm concerned.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:20 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Then there is no real you!!

False. Something can exist without being viewed.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:23 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Love and value are not invalidated by subjectivity.  You're essentially arguing that these phenomenon need to be transcendent to be real, and that they can only be transcendent if there is an eternal standard in God.  This is an argument from ignorance; you can't see how these phenomenon can be transcendent without God, therefore God.  Well that's a fallacious argument.  And it's easily dismissed on that basis.

My argument is that what we love cannot be just the mask that others put or what we or others tell ourselves we are. It has to be something real. And that who we are and judgment are interlinked. Love depends on judgment. Take away REAL you, and what is love to love?

The subjective you created by a brain that has no authority on who you truly are, neither to judge, neither to order you!

Are we in love with real "who" of people, even though, we may not know it fully or even have false conceptions of them, or are win love with simply with the subjective judgment that has no objective basis?

Love as I said many times, proves, we know we have exact value. It's our most foundational essence to who we are, and what we know.

---

Quote:False. Something can exist without being viewed.

"Who" has to be viewed though.

(March 24, 2017 at 10:28 am)MysticKnight Wrote: "Who" has to be viewed though.

What?

(March 24, 2017 at 10:31 am)Jesster Wrote:

(March 24, 2017 at 10:28 am)MysticKnight Wrote: "Who" has to be viewed though.

What?

We have traits that cannot be separated from judgement, in fact, the whole of we are, is subject to judgement.