(March 25, 2017 at 10:41 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I believe the opposite, I believe we require "all-existence" for meaning and we cannot find it just in our selves, because we ourselves are defined by our link and relationship to beings around us, and so must love every creation, be it the pebbles that glorify God or trees that do so to, and especially humans.

Then your beliefs are demonstrably false by brute force of fact.  Not only can we find meaning in ourselves, we do...with regularity.

I know, I know...I know.  Your meaning is better meaning, the real meaning, true meaning™.  

(March 25, 2017 at 10:41 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I believe we require "all-existence" for meaning and we cannot find it just in our selves...

No.  Just... no.  I am the only being in the entire universe who is entitled to determine what my meaning is, and have no right whatsoever to determine what your meaning might be.  Keep your imaginary friend off my turf.

I don't want to seem rude. But is there a point at which we stop trying to make rational arguments, and start using the words "batshit crazy" ? Or at least asking the right questions, like: "Do you know your beliefs to be true because your neighbor's dog keeps telling you they are?"

And there comes a point when it's all been said before many many times and we just have to to face the fact that having an imaginary friend is batshit crazy and explaining why for the 80 billionth time is rather tiring.

I think the best thing about life is that you have the opportunity to leave it having made it a better place for other people. There's a satisfaction in going to sleep feeling proud of yourself, I want that same feeling the be that last thing I feel before I die.

(March 27, 2017 at 11:05 pm)Gearbreak Wrote: I think the best thing about life is that you have the opportunity to leave it having made it a better place for other people. There's a satisfaction in going to sleep feeling proud of yourself, I want that same feeling the be that last thing I feel before I die.

I like that -- kind of a "long, busy day" philosophy of life.

(March 27, 2017 at 8:52 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(March 25, 2017 at 10:41 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I believe the opposite, I believe we require "all-existence" for meaning and we cannot find it just in our selves, because we ourselves are defined by our link and relationship to beings around us, and so must love every creation, be it the pebbles that glorify God or trees that do so to, and especially humans.

Then your beliefs are demonstrably false by brute force of fact.  Not only can we find meaning in ourselves, we do...with regularity.

I know, I know...I know.  Your meaning is better meaning, the real meaning, true meaning™.  

You finding meaning because you have an over arching meaning. For example, you find meaning in loving others, doing good to others, doing good to yourself, etc, because you have value which is meaningful.

But the meaning you assign yourself is not random or chaotic or maybe it is, at least it shouldn't be. And if you think about it, how you relate to others is important to who you are. So that way you are interlinked.

If you had a dog, that dog would relate to you and how you treat it, etc, will relate to who you are. What you like as food, etc, all things around you, and we are today a global society where we are all chained somehow together. That is you know a person that knows people you don't know, and we are chained like that.

To exclude God out of how you define yourself is nothing but  hate of God and hate of the closest being to us.  We are his creation, servants, and his perception defines us and his grace preserves us.

(March 28, 2017 at 11:18 am)MysticKnight Wrote: To exclude God out of how you define yourself is nothing but  hate of God and hate of the closest being to us.  We are his creation, servants, and his perception defines us and his grace preserves us.

So you're saying we shouldn't reject gods because they're so close to us? Aren't just saying we should believe because we're wrong not to? That seems to be a reason without a reason. From the point of view of someone who doesn't believe, how near you may think they are isn't likely to be persuasive. That would be like arguing that Harvey really does exist because in fact he is 7 foot tall and standing right behind me.

(March 28, 2017 at 11:26 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(March 28, 2017 at 11:18 am)MysticKnight Wrote: To exclude God out of how you define yourself is nothing but  hate of God and hate of the closest being to us.  We are his creation, servants, and his perception defines us and his grace preserves us.

So you're saying we shouldn't reject gods because they're so close to us?  Aren't just saying we should believe because we're wrong not to?  That seems to be a reason without a reason.  From the point of view of someone who doesn't believe, how near you may think they are isn't likely to be persuasive.  That would be like arguing that Harvey really does exist because in fact he is 7 foot tall and standing right behind me.

God is manifest and is what defines things as they are, he is the proof and manifesting light that gives things their definition, there is no need to offer him proof when everything we offer proof to him (although does prove him) is proven through him.

So that being the case, it's only ungrateful hate to the closest and greatest being that people deny him.

Did MK forget what we do with bald assertions?