(May 2, 2009 at 2:15 pm)Sai Wrote: In fact, I can turn the question around: do you require evidence for every little facet of life? I'm sure you don't - we constantly trust and believe in what our body and our soul tells us. But once the consciousness gets "trained" to work with evidence, it begins to deny the other ways of finding truth.

Well it's hard to demand evidence for EVERYTHING in your life....but when you feel something then I usually think that is at least generally self-evidence that you are feeling it! For example....
The truth of it on the other hand is more guess-work, it's hard knowing why and how you feel what you feel sometimes... but just because I can get it wrong - for example - and it NOT be evidence doesn't mean I DON'T only wish to believe in what there is evidence of...

What used to be evidence, in science for example, in the past, isn't ALWAYS evidence any more because science makes mistakes, because it's not perfect because scientists aren't perfect, because people aren't perfect...etc.
But the fact that science continues to keep looking to the evidence, looking to the evidence, and keep going back to the evidence - is one of the things that makes it so awesome....

Just because they get it wrong sometimes - or you can misjudge your own feelings because it's not always very reliable evidence in regards to YOURSELF and your OWN feelings (or feelings of others, empathy etc) - doesn't mean to not keep looking...
And the thing is, feelings have got absolutely nothing to do with the existence (or non-existence) of things in the real world, they're not evidence of existence.

They're more about empathy (the truth of feelings that is, e.g). I mean no matter how you feel about 'God' or 'Jesus' it doesn't count as evidence of his existence...because you can feel like that about anything! Existent or non-existent.
If you have awesome feelings towards Superman, The Hulk, or Spiderman, for example! Hypothetically speaking - and you just "FEEL" and "KNOW" that they really do exist ( I mean if you say and believe that)....does this count remotely as evidence that they actually exist outside comic books, cartoons, TV shows and movies, etc?

No.

Same with Jesus or God. Feelings are not evidence.

EvF

P.S: Oh, and as Adrian basically says: WHAT other ways of finding truth? As far as we know empirical evidence is the only way to go for the evidence of the existence of things!

And if you have any other evidence besides just feelings (that AREN'T evidence), for the existence of God, I'd like to know what you believe this evidence IS?

I think that Sai believes that JC's words are true because he wants to believe that they are true. I can't think of any other reason, after all there's no evidence to support them and I'm not really convinced that he even existed in the first place.

Certainly not the character as dictated in the bible.

As Carl Sagan said, you cannot convince a believer of anything as their belief is not based on evidence but on a deep seated need to believe.

@Tiberius:
Sure, that's why you should be honest with yourself and not force your beliefs unto others. But just because material evidence is so straightforward and convenient isn't a reason to rely solely on it alone. Incidentally, I don't think that the realm of spirituality is alien to anybody. It just can be hard to cope with on an intellectual level because it's so different from the realm of empiricism. So there's no way for me to show it to you if you haven't experienced it yourself. That's why Jesus advised us to pray in privacy and not make a big party out of it, like what is happening now. That only leads us to embracing the potentially corrupted viewpoints of the community.
I believe there is more to find by looking into our souls (whoops!) than could ever be found under a microscope (not that biology isn't important!).
Of course god has given us natural instincts and abilities to be able to live on our own. But that is only one part of us. Some things that we hold most dear can't be detected neither through our senses nor through any other material means, faith is essential in order to make the connection and to be able to embrace them.

Thank you very much for your challenging comment, Adrian!

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(May 2, 2009 at 3:29 pm)WWLD Wrote: So when you say Jesus taught you more directly, it really was "god" teaching you, but in the form of a human so he COULD teach you directly by coming to earth. He wouldn't be able to teach you directly if he wasn't human on earth would he? So "God" translated himself with a human form of himself?

Yes, that's more or less what I think. God isn't something that we could possibly comprehend, Jesus is a bridge that we can use to experience god and to understand the non-material nature of ourselves and our world.
But I don't think it's like god taught us directly through a human body, Jesus was in my opinion no more divine than any other human (uh, I think I heard a thunder XD), he simply was completely open to god. But in the grand scheme of things, it was only a little push to turn us into the right direction.

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(May 2, 2009 at 3:31 pm)Tiberius Wrote: On that note, why do you think Jesus' words are true? What makes him a prophet?

I don't really buy into the prophets idea... I don't think that god specifically sends humans to earth to fullfill errands... what nonsense XD .

Prophets are always self-proclaimed, but Jesus didn't go around claiming to be the son of god. It were other people who took the liberty of giving him that title. The only thing that was important to him was to lay the groundwork for people to be able to build a powerful connection to god. He sacrificed all the worldly goodies that he could have gotten in order to be with people that needed him the most. Both with his life and his death he proved that spirituality is ultimately infinitely more powerful than volatile material things.

I can't say in a few sentences what makes me believe that Jesus words are true... What I can say is that his words fulfill and complete my original beliefs and "instincts", my natural spiritual condition that fortunately hasn't been completely distorted through religious or societal dogma. I can agree with him out of my own free will, without having to be taught or forced by anybody. This harmony, I think, resonates as truth.

(May 2, 2009 at 4:14 pm)Sai Wrote:

(May 2, 2009 at 3:29 pm)WWLD Wrote: So when you say Jesus taught you more directly, it really was "god" teaching you, but in the form of a human so he COULD teach you directly by coming to earth. He wouldn't be able to teach you directly if he wasn't human on earth would he? So "God" translated himself with a human form of himself?

Yes, that's more or less what I think. God isn't something that we could possibly comprehend, Jesus is a bridge that we can use to experience god and to understand the non-material nature of ourselves and our world.
But I don't think it's like god taught us directly through a human body, Jesus was in my opinion no more divine than any other human (uh, I think I heard a thunder XD), he simply was completely open to god. But in the grand scheme of things, it was only a little push to turn us into the right direction.

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So because Jesus taught people about god, and why people should worship God, and because he "translated" the word of God...you worship Jesus, not God?

So I guess in this case you also would worship/ follow a priest? or the pope? Because they all "teach" people about God as well, right?

I don't see any other reason why you would worship Jesus since you don't believe he had any divine powers.

I'm very confused on what you believe/ worship and why.

@EvidenceVsFaith:

Hey! Superman does exist!! XD
No, I really do agree with you that science is an awesome instrument.

And you are right that feelings are not evidence of existence. But both evidence and existence are part of the material realm. So, again, that's using rubber to hammer a nail into the wall.
Your spiritual senses won't tell you anything factual (Psychics are frauds!). But if what they tell you perfectly coincides with what a man 2000 years ago has said, wouldn't you consider that as "evidence"?

Imagine living as a slave where you are being constantly fed propaganda and lies, yet you manage to form your own beliefs about the truth somehow. Then a person appears that suddenly starts telling these radical things that completely contradict what you have been told, yet are in complete agreement with what you have come to think on your own - but so much more beautiful and sophisticated. Wouldn't you want to cry from joy? Proof and evidence then would become simply redundant.

But which came first? Your views concerning spirituality or your knowledge of Jesus's message? I could understand your point of view if you had formed these views without any knowledge of JC and his teachings and then, to your amazement discovered that you were in synergy with him but let's face it, in the western world it's pretty hard not to know a lot about the man and what he taught.

(May 2, 2009 at 2:15 pm)Sai Wrote: Taking the Bible literally is synonymous to looking at it through the lens of empiricism. It doesn't work, it's like hammering a nail in with rubber. Yet, it's what even so-called believers continually attempt to do.
I think it's a lot like looking at a long mathematical formula and expecting it to make sense if you read it like a novel. You won't have much fun with that...
And in the case of the bible, the truth in it must be experienced and felt, not analyzed like a factual document. It should be looked upon more like a piece of art or music and not like a history book. The way to read it properly is innate to us, but I think it can't be forced or taught in sunday school or at church (actually, trying to teach it makes it usually only harder to understand). That's why so many people falsly use it for immoral ends... and it's also why Jesus wasn't a big fan of churches.
Just like it's insane to try to read the theory of relativity like a suspense novel, it won't get you far if you take the bible literal. But if read properly, you will find an enormous amount of value in both.

Damn! U good!

Welcome Sai

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(May 2, 2009 at 4:14 pm)Sai Wrote: Jesus didn't go around claiming to be the son of god.

erm... yes he did

And fr0d0's reply brings me onto another point. How do we really know what Jesus said and what people say he said. All the Biblical accounts are self contradictory and not a single non-biblical document exists that tells us what he said.

(May 2, 2009 at 5:26 pm)Sai Wrote: @EvidenceVsFaith:

And you are right that feelings are not evidence of existence. But both evidence and existence are part of the material realm. So, again, that's using rubber to hammer a nail into the wall.
Your spiritual senses won't tell you anything factual (Psychics are frauds!). But if what they tell you perfectly coincides with what a man 2000 years ago has said, wouldn't you consider that as "evidence"?

Eh? What? Lemme get this straight...

Quote:And you are right that feelings are not evidence of existence.

Ok, you agree with me there:

1. feelings are not evidence of existence

Quote:But both evidence and existence are part of the material realm. So, again, that's using rubber to hammer a nail into the wall.
Your spiritual senses won't tell you anything factual (Psychics are frauds!). But if what they tell you perfectly coincides with what a man 2000 years ago has said, wouldn't you consider that as "evidence"?

Now you are saying that evidence is insufficient because it's part of the material realm and you are talking about spiritual truths here right?

But then 2. If feelings are not evidence of existence, what exactly are these 'spiritual' truths that your 'spiritual senses' can tell you - that can be anything more than you simply feeling grateful (or whatever) - for whatever reason - to be moved and inspired by the teachings a man called Jesus supposedly gave 2000 years ago? Is there anything supernatural that you believe in here? Considering - I think I read? - that you believe in Jesus, rather than, or MORE than you believe in God? And you do not believe they are one an the same, or that he is a prophet and therefore you certainly don't believe he is the son of God? I mean is there anything supernatural here that you believe in exactly?

What are these 'spiritual truths' that you understand through your 'spiritual senses' that separates these 2 things from simply 'truths' and 'senses'? (i.e, where does the 'spiritual' part come in? What do you believe?).

Also, because you put evidence in quotes, I assume you do not mean 1. evidence in the same way or 2. I assume you also aren't counting FEELINGS to be evidence of Jesus...because you said you don't - because in '1.' you said feelings can't count as evidence, so to now say that 'spiritual truths' do, and can, if they (whatever 'they' are) are guided and based on feelings the how an earth can they count as evidence, according to you (and me) feelings do not count as evidence for the existence of something?

So where is the evidence (outside feelings as we say) for the existence of the 'spiritual', of these 'spiritual truths' using your 'spiritual senses' whatever they are other than simply yours senses?

EvF

(May 2, 2009 at 5:10 pm)WWLD Wrote: So because Jesus taught people about god, and why people should worship God, and because he "translated" the word of God...you worship Jesus, not God?

So I guess in this case you also would worship/ follow a priest? or the pope? Because they all "teach" people about God as well, right?

I don't see any other reason why you would worship Jesus since you don't believe he had any divine powers.

I'm very confused on what you believe/ worship and why.

I don't worship anything or anyone... why would god or jesus need to be worshipped? That's simply the statist propaganda that has found it's way into religion.

A more fitting term would be appreciation and love. Just like you would appreciate your parents giving birth to you and caring for you when you couldn't live on your own. Or like you would appreciate and love your husband or wife for supporting you even though you are an alcohol-addicted lazyass (nyaa, just kidding, just kidding XD !). I guess I can say that I love Jesus for his purity (even though that term doesn't carry enough meaning by far, but o well).

I don't "worship" other priests because I trust the judgment of my mind and soul (crap! used the forbidden word again!). And frankly, what I see nowadays in the religious leaders is complete and utter corruption, confusion and greed for material things, which are in complete contradiction to what I have come to believe. But I don't think I need to tell you about that, it's quite obvious especially to an atheist (I would presume). However, religions at the moment are by far not as evil as states. But I digress...

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(May 2, 2009 at 4:12 pm)Darwinian II Wrote: I think that Sai believes that JC's words are true because he wants to believe that they are true. I can't think of any other reason, after all there's no evidence to support them and I'm not really convinced that he even existed in the first place.

Certainly not the character as dictated in the bible.

As Carl Sagan said, you cannot convince a believer of anything as their belief is not based on evidence but on a deep seated need to believe.

Weeell, but so could I say that you only are an atheist in order to live that sinful live of flesh and sin, because I can't think of any other reason... XD

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(May 2, 2009 at 5:36 pm)Darwinian II Wrote: But which came first? Your views concerning spirituality or your knowledge of Jesus's message? I could understand your point of view if you had formed these views without any knowledge of JC and his teachings and then, to your amazement discovered that you were in synergy with him but let's face it, in the western world it's pretty hard not to know a lot about the man and what he taught.

Uuuuh... *stares at your ava...*
I'm sorry, what did you say again? XD (your ava is goddamn hypnotizing!)

But yeah, chicken or egg, was it?
Of course spirituality was first! Just like my other five senses along with everything else. We are all born with it. Unfortunately, many of our natural traits are blocked and taken away from us when we grow up. I just happened to develop a little differently (well, of course we all grow up differently, but few can manage to really detach themself from the ongoing brainwash of our society).
I would argue, though, that little of Jesus is *really* known in the western world. The christians who really follow christ can be almost counted on one hand. Otherwise, there would be no USA, or any other violence-monopolizing human-authority, for that matter.