(May 3, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Grandizer Wrote: I was wondering what you guys think about this? Are you for or against? And why? I love the idea, and I feel that this could work with a bit of push, but I have no confident position on this just yet.

For those not in the know:

Quote:A basic income (also called basic income guarantee, Citizen's Income, unconditional basic income, universal basic income, or universal demogrant[2]) is a form of social security[3] in which all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Andrew, is that you?

(May 5, 2017 at 8:57 pm)Tres Leches Wrote: We already have an income floor in the US paid for by taxes - it's for people over 65 and the disabled and it's called Social Security. I don't see how Social Security and the concept of a universal basic income differ all that much.

It seems we're in denial about how much automation is going to take over jobs done by humans in the next few decades. Machines are often much cheaper, they don't get sick or take vacations and they don't file costly worker's compensation claims.

If there are fewer jobs with a decent wage than there are able-bodied people, you're going to have a crap economy, there's no two ways about it. My spending is your income and your spending is my income.

I'm interested to see how it goes in some of these localities that are trying out universal basic income. Although I doubt it will come to the US as the wealthy would never allow it and they run the show here, sadly.

-Teresa

This is spot on.

We don't frequent these kinds of places much but while traveling last year we stopped and had dinner at a Olive Garden. At that time, they had touch screen ipad looking devices on every table and our server ran through a whole schpeil on how we could use it to order desert or additional drinks and whatnot. As this happened I sat there wondering if our server realized he was introducing us to the thing that is going to eliminate his job someday. 

There will come a day when chain restaurants that now require 10-15 wait staff plus several in the kitchen and a few hosts and bartenders will be able to operate just as effectively with one or two in the kitchen and three or four out front and that's it. When that happens at every restaurant, where are all those other schmucks going to work?

I work for a company that employs about fifty truck drivers. I believe I will live to see the day when my company will be able to operate at our present level with only about five actual drivers. When that happens at every trucking company, where are all those other schmucks going to work?

When I sat there at Olive Garden getting hit with my flash of the future as our server was showing me how simple it was to order a piece of cheese cake, one of my first thoughts was who will be able to afford to eat at Olive Garden when Olive Garden and every other similar business no longer needs 90% of their employees?

Like Teresa said, your spending becomes my income and my spending becomes your income. When a huge portion of us no longer have the option of being able to spend, most of us will be left without a source of income. I don't know if universal basic income is the answer. But I do know that absolutely fucking no one in the chain of command at Olive Garden or any other company is going to stop and think hmmm.... if we eliminate 90% of our staff through the use of technology and machines, the economy will suffer and no one will be able to afford to buy our products anymore so I guess we'd better not do that and just keep the employees employed instead. No one is going to do that. Ever.

(May 6, 2017 at 9:11 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(May 5, 2017 at 11:24 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Define "intentionally" MH.  Does intentional include people who live in shitty neighborhoods, with shitty schools, and cops who think it is their job to act as an army of occupation?  People who are crushed by pervasive poverty?  People who have no useful skills because society threw them under a bus during the fucking Nixon administration?

First google definition: deliberately; on purpose.


I rode the Nixon bus. You probably did also. How you doin?

Dude. You rode in the front of the Nixon bus.

(May 6, 2017 at 12:14 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(May 6, 2017 at 9:11 am)mh.brewer Wrote: First google definition: deliberately; on purpose.


I rode the Nixon bus. You probably did also. How you doin?

Dude. You rode in the front of the Nixon bus.

Are you claiming my success is due to race privilege?

---

(May 5, 2017 at 8:57 pm)Tres Leches Wrote: We already have an income floor in the US paid for by taxes - it's for people over 65 and the disabled and it's called Social Security. I don't see how Social Security and the concept of a universal basic income differ all that much.

[edit]

What they differ in is the ability to seek and perform work.

(May 6, 2017 at 12:29 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(May 6, 2017 at 12:14 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Dude. You rode in the front of the Nixon bus.

Are you claiming my success is due to race privilege?

No. I am not. I am claiming that your ride on the Nixon bus was different than people from systematically oppressed areas.

(May 6, 2017 at 12:31 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(May 6, 2017 at 12:29 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Are you claiming my success is due to race privilege?

No. I am not. I am claiming that your ride on the Nixon bus was different than people from systematically oppressed areas.

What is a systematically oppressed area? Does small town sticks Nebraska count? Ya know, the clod hopper fly over people.

(May 6, 2017 at 12:38 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(May 6, 2017 at 12:31 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: No. I am not. I am claiming that your ride on the Nixon bus was different than people from systematically oppressed areas.

What is a systematically oppressed area? Does small town sticks Nebraska count? Ya know, the clod hopper fly over people.

Any areas still reeling from segregation policies and the "separate but equal" lie that was told for decades.

Any person affected by Nixon's War on Drugs, which was, as told by his Chief Strategist:

Quote: “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/

I am not saying your ride was easy.

(May 6, 2017 at 12:29 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(May 6, 2017 at 12:14 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Dude. You rode in the front of the Nixon bus.

Are you claiming my success is due to race privilege?

---

(May 5, 2017 at 8:57 pm)Tres Leches Wrote: We already have an income floor in the US paid for by taxes - it's for people over 65 and the disabled and it's called Social Security. I don't see how Social Security and the concept of a universal basic income differ all that much.

[edit]

What they differ in is the ability to seek and perform work.

Sure, but looking into the future, if able-bodied people aren't able to find suitable jobs because of automation and sending jobs overseas, there's no work to seek or perform in the first place.
 
The elderly often have declining physical and mental capabilities (sorry, I don't mean to insult old people here ), and may be less able to find a suitable job, thus the gov't provides an income floor.

I don't think it's unreasonable to consider an income floor for both scenarios.

-Teresa

(May 6, 2017 at 12:46 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(May 6, 2017 at 12:38 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: What is a systematically oppressed area? Does small town sticks Nebraska count? Ya know, the clod hopper fly over people.

Any areas still reeling from segregation policies and the "separate but equal" lie that was told for decades.

Any person affected by Nixon's War on Drugs, which was, as told by his Chief Strategist:

Quote: “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”

https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/

I am not saying your ride was easy.

Were you from a systematically oppressed area?

(May 6, 2017 at 2:56 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(May 6, 2017 at 12:46 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Any areas still reeling from segregation policies and the "separate but equal" lie that was told for decades.

Any person affected by Nixon's War on Drugs, which was, as told by his Chief Strategist:

https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/

I am not saying your ride was easy.

Were you from a systematically oppressed area?

I was born in the inner city in Pittsburgh. My dad was in the Navy and we moved a bit. But, yeah, I have lived in these areas.

I have systemically oppressed skin. I've had a service weapon pulled on me for having a brake light out and reaching into my glove box for the registration that a police officer asked of me. I get called "boy" about once a month. I have been told that I am not welcome at a gas station because "we don't serve ragheads here." I have to put on my "good accent" when I go into job interviews, just in case I'm too black for some of these assholes in Tennessee. I thank my parents for naming me "Michael" and not "JaMarcus" because then I would have to send three times as many resumés.

My only issue was the equivocation.