(May 9, 2017 at 2:37 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 9, 2017 at 11:48 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That is precisely why Christians study scriptures. The sensus divinitatis has two aspects. First, the Holy Spirit convicts by revealing to each person the fallen state of the world and him or her personally. Things are not as they should be. We are not as we should be. Something is missing.

Maybe I should make it clear that I'm not against reading or research.  But I would never look to any text or system of practice with the intention of adopting its methodology carte blanche.  Fine to sample from many sources but in the end I could never forget that everyone who has ever wished to know more has always stood exactly where I am with no more expertise or certainty than I myself possess.

While I'm more than happy to stand on the shoulders of giants where math, science and technology are concerned, when it comes to a search for meaning or an examination of values I would never sub that out to another.  The primary reason is that too much is at stake where meaning and values are concerned.  To delegate the decision to an expert of any stripe would feel like self abnegation.  It would feel like shirking responsibility for something important.  Even if I very much desired guidance and expertise, I would still have to make the choice of expert.  If I'm qualified to make that choice, I might as well go the whole way.

(May 9, 2017 at 11:48 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That is the meaning of Romans 1:18 where Paul writes about “…those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” The natural apprehension of the divine is downplayed or dismissed outright, not just because it offends our sense of moral autonomy, but also because our reasoning about it is corrupted and our intuition of it is dulled.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit (sensus divinitatus) offers a way to correct those deficiencies by reorienting each of us towards the truth, the truth beyond our human filters and natural reasoning. This is the meaning of Romans 12:2 where Paul writes “..do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”.  General revelation is available to all but special revelation compensates for our limitations and supplements our understanding.

Got to be honest.  When the numbered scriptures come out, I glaze over.  

(May 9, 2017 at 11:48 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: And why not? If the sensus divinitatus does in fact point to God, then it is only right and proper for people to attune themselves to and become more sensitive to it. If there is a God that loves us without measure then it only makes sense seeking to grow in our love for Him.

I acknowledge the internal consistency of it.  Naturally that doesn't mean I want to play along.  One thing I'd like to see more of from Christians is an acceptance that they live in multi-cultural world.  Xtians need to learn ways to be true to their internal beliefs in a way that acknowledges and doesn't impose upon those who don't share them.  In fact, I think christianity would benefit from an increased valuation of the world we live in here and now.  I think they should dwell less on an afterlife.  That may be part of 'the package' they signed on for but -from the outside- it seems weak.  When I judge the values a group embraces I don't care one wit what they do for the sake of a better deal in the 'hereafter'.  More important is what they do to lift up the world we live in now and add to quality of life not just for their xtian tribe but the human tribe generally and the entire web of life on this precious world we inhabit right here and now.  The minding of P's and Q's for one's personal advantage in an imagined future world doesn't impress anyone outside your tribe.

Most americans see their christianity as something they never think about or to deny a multi-cultural world.  It blends well with their bigotry, self-righteousness and ego. What good is being christian if you can't look down on others?

Yeah it often seems that way, doesn't it. It is easy to see from the outside that they are doing the whole xtian thing wrong, but thankfully there are exceptions.

(May 10, 2017 at 9:48 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

Are we supposed to be impressed? So, once again, the word "good" is defined out of all meaning except, "what my imaginary deity decides it is".

(May 10, 2017 at 10:50 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 9:48 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

Are we supposed to be impressed? So, once again, the word "good" is defined out of all meaning except, "what my imaginary deity decides it is".

How do you think that good is being redefined here? I do t understand how you post correlates.

(May 10, 2017 at 11:07 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 10:50 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: Are we supposed to be impressed?  So, once again, the word "good" is defined out of all meaning except, "what my imaginary deity decides it is".

How do you think that good is being redefined here? I do t understand how you post correlates.

Good typically means the type of personality characterized by the tendency to treat others respectfully and with dignity and/or fight injustice and unwarranted harm. It does not typically mean that which is in harmony with God's will. Step outside of theology once in a while, and study some sociology and anthropology for a change.

Ok...I don't disagree with that for the most part, and do not think that the meme need change any of that.

I do see however think that your comment is based mostly on what was not said, but your assumptions (and possibly misunderstandings).

I believe this is why you misunderstand the meme posted.

The message of the meme is pretty clear. Salvation has nothing to do with how good we think we are; but rather, on our acknowledgement of our shortcomings, requesting, and accepting God's forgiveness. This in no way negates the fact that a proper response to God's grace is gratitude and obedience.

(May 10, 2017 at 9:48 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

So a forgiven murderer will go to heaven if he repents but a compassionate and amazing atheist that never repents his 'sin' of not believing in bullshit isn't forgiven and doesn't go to heaven.

God is a full blown retard.

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(May 10, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The message of the meme is pretty clear. Salvation has nothing to do with how good we think we are; but rather, on our acknowledgement of our shortcomings, requesting, and accepting God's forgiveness. This in no way negates the fact that a proper response to God's grace is gratitude and obedience.

The meme doesn't say people who think they're good don't go to heaven... it says good people don't go to heaven.

And it says forgiven people do. i.e. even if they're terrible people they can get to heaven by accepting Jesus but if they're good people they can't if they don't put their faith in a non-existent fuckhead.

(May 10, 2017 at 1:10 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So a forgiven murderer will go to heaven if he repents but a compassionate and amazing atheist that never repents his 'sin' of not believing in bullshit isn't forgiven and doesn't go to heaven.

That's exactly right. That is what forgiveness means. God's love is so great that no matter how depraved or inhuman you have been He is still reaching out to you with mercy. No one earns God's love. He already loves you. All you have to do is accept it.