BTW, as an aside, I was curious what my daughter thought about this subject. Iv'e never told her or taught her what I think, or what TO think about it.

So I asked her as best I could, and she thinks people are partly guided/caused, and partly have free-will. She thinks much like CL that advanced animals have more free-will than say, a fish or a worm, but all creatures with brains have some level of it. And she thinks Watson has the same amount of free-will as the humans and other advanced animals.

She just went on to explain that free-will is correlated with desire. She said, even though a jellyfish moves, it has no free-will, because it does not feel desire for things. It requires food and stuff, but is unaware of it (so here she's tying it to awareness, too), and she thinks animals like Orcas have free-will just like a person, because it feels a lot of emotion.

I asked if her if she thinks Watson has emotion, and she said yes. It desires to fulfill it's programming, so it does the best to come up with the best answers it can, and this is how the computer expresses it's free-will. (She's still telling me about what she thinks about queen bees vs drone bees, and a bunch of other specific animals). This seems to be something she's got a lot of ideas about!

Just sharing, I thought her thoughts were interesting on this topic, too.

(May 17, 2017 at 3:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(May 17, 2017 at 2:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: So just to be clear, you believe in hard determinism not because it is true but because the initial conditions of the universe make you think that it is.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  

But not necessarily connected. And for that matter, why should they be?

In my case, not just the proposed initial conditions of the universe, but literally everything we have ever actually observed. Ever.

(May 17, 2017 at 3:41 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 17, 2017 at 3:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: The two aren't mutually exclusive.  

But not necessarily connected. And for that matter, why should they be?

Supposedly, having true thoughts has some survival value. I know, rite. Go figure.

(May 17, 2017 at 3:43 pm)Aroura Wrote: In my case, not just the proposed initial conditions of the universe, but literally everything we have ever actually observed.  Ever.

Which conditions were the most initial?

(May 17, 2017 at 3:54 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 17, 2017 at 3:43 pm)Aroura Wrote: In my case, not just the proposed initial conditions of the universe, but literally everything we have ever actually observed.  Ever.

Which conditions were the most initial?

As far as I know, causal ones.

Ahhh .. but what caused them?

(May 17, 2017 at 4:18 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Ahhh .. but what caused them?

No one knows of course, though many claim to.

Mybe we'll know someday, if we keep looking.

I know you are being silly, mr. man. :p

I don't think computers have free will lol. They are machines, designed to respond in certain ways you certain commands. They don't have the ability to understand consequences and right from wrong.

(May 17, 2017 at 4:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't think computers have free will lol. They are machines, designed to respond in certain ways you certain commands. They don't have the ability to understand consequences and right from wrong.

Wait, so understanding consequences and telling right from wrong are required for free will?  Or was it thinking at rationality?  Or sentience?

You said you thought animals have some level of free-will.
Can a pig tell right from wrong at any level, and who determines that for the pig?

Edited to add, what if computers someday show all of the above?

Let's say we tell it a is right, b is wrong (Like Asimovs laws of robotics or something), and they become sentient, that is aware of their own existence, and they can think and reason rationally, would they have free-will then?....Hypothetically of course.