@Soyouz- The Bible specifically talks about the Lord putting his law on every man's heart, Much like Captain Scarlet pointed out. It is not however just a justification to seem more accepting, nor is it a rationalization to a shifting societal moralistic code. While society's moral code may change the guiding principles of the Bible are much more dogmatic in nature and less privy to be shifted on a societal whim. Greater understanding can (and has come), but only through thought, reflection and testing of the teachings of Religion.

(September 15, 2010 at 9:23 am)Ace Wrote: I have asked in other threads about the reasoning of sending people to hell for all eternity for a finite victemless crime. Didn't quite get an answer.
Can a theist here explain the reasoning behind endless torture for a finite victemless crime?
Who can give a rational reason for it?
Oh and why do people end up in hell for simply having certain thoughts or lack ther of? Who is affected by anothers beliefs (or lack ther of)?

Oh and don't bother saying 'no one can understand god's reasons' bullshit.

I really want an answer to this one. Since I think it's impossible to give a rational explanation for it. Rules that make no sense are rules made without reason.

Because the concept of infinite torture for something that is victimless but offends the bigoted sensibilities of the most narrow minded of theists gives those same theists a deeply enjoyable make belief power trip. To preserve the make belief and thereby the efficacy of this concept in giving them this much desired high, they will go through great lengths to assert to themselves and any whom they can afflict that this concept is actually true.

By the way, "no one can understand god's reasons" is another way of saying "I am full of shit and I will use any means necessary to avoid being called to task for spreading my shit wherever it will stick.

I agree Chuck, luckily not all theists are so narrow-minded.

Chuck, I love ya man!

(September 15, 2010 at 9:37 am)Ace Otana Wrote: I doubt any theist will be able to give a good answer for this one.
They keep harping about god being all-loving and yet there is a hell?
Then they harp on about him being all-powerful and yet the devil is still around. Plus creating the universe in 7 days implies that he isn't all powerful.
They harp on about god being all-knowing and yet they say god designs but if you know everything why would you need to design anything? Also whats the point in prayer if he already knows what you want?

None of it makes any sense.

God gave us choice. He created another creator and once this creator gained knowledge of the natural order of good and evil, right and wrong, selfish and unselfish, it choose not its creator who was there but itself and its owns desires. Satan falling to the earth as he too succumb to the desire to be God himself left one to tempt the easily tempted. Hell is created for those that choice lies in the desire for sin and can not be changed, for to have choice is that not good? Who says he is all powerful? He is a God that created the Heavens and the earth. He is not dependent on anything external to himself. Because he knows he designs well, apart from him, without the infinite knowledge nothing can be. Prayer is humbling, a time to confess, not just ask for things. Prayer is a proof that you are true to your conviction to God.

Quote:God gave us choice.

Oh fuck...here we go again. Another jesus freak.

(September 15, 2010 at 2:21 pm)Skipper Wrote: Again, you say he doesn't want us to all be the same mindless beings, then sets out a fairly strict criteria of how we are to live our lives, and even what we are to think and believe, if we want to avoid eternal torture...it does look exactly like he wants us to all be the same, and be controlled. Yet I don't think a truly great and eternal being would be to fussed if people didn't live exactly like he wants them to, and believe in him as the highest power...I suggest those qualities of control and exploitation via threats of unjust punishment are more easily attributed to men, especially those who created and are at the top ends of the faith you follow.

Would you say what he gave us was wrong/evil? That to attempt to do good would be submission to these ideas when you can seek the opposites. The early Christians spreading the good news were sacrificed their lives for the Word, i don't think they were at the top while in jail.

Edit: As a side note... correct me if im wrong though, if god is all knowing, what point is there in us being on earth? He created us, he knows all that we think, all we have done and all that we will do, if it's already a foregone conclusion as far as gods concerned whether im going to hell or not due to the decisions he knows I will make...why bother putting me on the earth at all? Why not divide all the souls up into two camps and leave it at that. Seems like a waste of a week of his time creating everything if you ask me.
[/quote]
The point of us being on earth is a chance, no matter if he knows whats gonna happen or not, we get to prove it because we are not automatons but are willing creators.

---

(July 19, 2011 at 11:05 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:God gave us choice.

Oh fuck...here we go again. Another jesus freak.

I believe Jesus died for my sins and I accepted that, may i ask what you did today or what you will do tomorrow?

(September 15, 2010 at 9:31 am)Zen Badger Wrote: I think you'll be waiting for an atheist to answer intelligently for quite a while Ace.

With respect, didn't you mean to say "theist"? Instead of atheist here?

(September 15, 2010 at 8:13 pm)Entropist Wrote:

(September 15, 2010 at 6:00 pm)Ace Wrote: "I have been invited by my friend to a group on facebook called 'so apparently I'm going to hell' which has a list of reasons ,stated by Mr. Micah Armstrong originally of the Assembly of God Church in Miami, of why you can go to hell...

Actually, according to orthodox (lower case "o") Christian doctrine, no one goes to hell because they've done any of these things. They go to hell (however one wishes to define the term "hell") because they have rejected Christ. The rest is just icing on the cake.

Just as one cannot be saved by works ("earn your way to heaven" etc) one cannot be condemned by works either. Bill Gates and Stalin accordingly are BOTH in hell-- what they did is irrelevant. Bill Gates philanthropy counts for nothing, but neither does Stalin's murder of millions. It is only because they both are/were atheists that condemns them. What those neurons in your brain do is more important than helping or harming people apparently.

But if one says he believes in Christ and then sins uncontrollably does he truly believe in Christ. Bill gates helps because he can but Jesus said give all your possessions and wealth to the poor. I could pee in a forest a forest fire, i would be helping but it wouldn't be enough. Stalin killed millions of people and he will have to give an account of what he did. Should one that does not seek or want forgiveness be forgiven?

---

(September 15, 2010 at 11:30 pm)Entropist Wrote:

(September 15, 2010 at 10:48 pm)tackattack Wrote: I think this thread has derailed beyond the point of no return...
Why do you have jones for Bill Gates? Besides maybe he is evil, I don't know what he does. I know money is the root of all evil though.

No, I'm using him as an example of an atheist who (Windows Vista aside) uses some of his wealth in order to help people. I don't have a problem with that. My point is that, however one defines "hell" or whatever happens to those who are not "saved," there is no distinction between non-believers for what they have done. The bottom line for Christianity is that Bill Gates and Stalin are EQUALLY unsaved. Both are non-believers and based on that criterion alone they are unsaved, deserving of the Christian god's wrath. What "good" or "evil" they do, for whatever reasons is irrelevant to their punishment from the Christian god.

It doesn't matter to me because I don't believe in any of this stuff anyway. But I think it is a curious doctrine and Christians themselves contradict themselves when they say Stalin is going to "hell" because of the terrible things he did. Hypothetically speaking, he would not be deserving of the Christian god's wrath for what he did at all. He could have not killed anyone, or killed 15 million people, or 15 billion. Big deal-- he was going to hell anyway, right?

Jesus spoke that at the end the good will be separated from the evil. Gates still could be really evil no matter what we know of him. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

---

[quote='Skipper' pid='94069' dateline='1284624612']
[quote='solja247' pid='93993' dateline='1284597516']

Quote:So where in the bible does it say hell is not eternal? Where does it give a less evil description of what punishment awaits us for sinning? I'm honestly trying to understand.

Then it seems eternal and you should stop sinning or you will find out or you wont even know if your right, nothing truly mattered.

(September 15, 2010 at 9:34 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: [Playing the proverbial devil's advocate here, not really what I believe]

Discard the who "salvation by faith" idea central to Christianity. Imagine instead that our fate was one of these two afterlives and it was based on a fair evaluation of our moral character, regardless of our religious beliefs or lack thereof.

Heaven and Hell are completely identical in their climate, environment, resources, etc. Based on any observation of unsettled areas of them, there's no way to tell the difference. The only distinction between them is their population.

If all the good, considerate, generous, compassionate people go to Heaven and all the evil sadistic, selfish, assholes go to Hell, effectively that makes each place what they are.

Purely a hypothetical.

But that doesn't make any sense still. After who's judgement do we go? It's like the question about utopia and dystopia, everyone cannot be pleased at the same time. For instance, the sadistic ones go to hell? What about the father who every day beat his children in the name of Christ, is he not a believer and desreve to go to heaven? But clearly, he's sadistic, so despite him wanting to live right by god and raise his kids to the best of his ability, thus he would end up in hell.