All well and good, but you might want to consider some distinction between the idiotic kids and the idiotic things they say marketing factory, and the mounds of work that's been done on cultural appropriation past and present.

I'll be honest with you. The Problem™.....imo, if we're talking about cultural appropriation... is not that dumb kids say dumb things...it's cultural appropriation.

(June 7, 2017 at 7:38 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 7, 2017 at 1:30 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Nope cosmetic objects like leather jackets are very different from something ceremonial like a dream catcher. Or as I have seen taking Inuit grave makers (like the one I carved for my murdered mother ) And having some hippy in Toronto turning it into flower pot. Or (true story ) taking Inuit wedding oaths  and tattooing it on your ass to pick up chicks. But yes I have problem taking legal action against manufactures of native items and demanding our cut.

This kind of thing is very understandable.  If someone from another came and peed on a gravestone or something, claims of cultural ignorance wouldn't save them from a ticket or even a beating.

Quote:Nope my definition of culture appropriation is taking key defining or sacred qualities of a culture removing it cultural context and then trivializing it because you think it "looks cool ".  ( dream catchers, wedding oaths , grave markers . By the way I define this separately from cultural erasing .   

Okay this makes sense.  Let me say though that I've seen dream catchers being openly sold in native crafts stores in my hometown in B.C.  Do I get a pass on cultural appropriation if something has been gifted or sold to me from a member of that culture?  What if I grow up in a community where they are a majority, and I know what dream catchers are and take them seriously?

I'm also curious what you think if a white artist takes an interest in the traditional forms used for example in totems, or in traditional dances.  Would you take an interest in learning about the culture, if it's sincere, as an attempt to appropriate?

Quote:This is a straw man of my position see above and if your asking how prominent the above is I can tell you it is.

Okay, your position actually sounds very reasonable to me, and in many ways I think that native populations in the Americas have a much more legitimate claim to cultural appropriation than do black people who get pissed off about dreadlocks or something like that.

Quote:This kind of thing is very understandable. If someone from another came and peed on a gravestone or something, claims of cultural ignorance wouldn't save them from a ticket or even a beating.

I would go as far as a beating but yes i see your point

Quote:Okay this makes sense. Let me say though that I've seen dream catchers being openly sold in native crafts stores in my hometown in B.C. Do I get a pass on cultural appropriation if something has been gifted or sold to me from a member of that culture?

I always find natives who sell native items dodgey . On one hand it's there art and they can sell it .On the other i worry that they are  reducing our culture to means of earning a quick buck . As for buying items it depends on the items as i have said before. Thou i can't stop them i don't think they should sell certain things. Ads for gifts depends on the reason and the person. Thou i stress i can't stop them from doing so.

Quote:What if I grow up in a community where they are a majority, and I know what dream catchers are and take them seriously?

Considering I'm half native ( my farther was white) .And over the years we have married non natives and yes many non natives live in the community and have married natives . And most give serious concern for the idea or at least respect the concept so yes it's possible.

Quote:I'm also curious what you think if a white artist takes an interest in the traditional forms used for example in totems, or in traditional dances. Would you take an interest in learning about the culture, if it's sincere, as an attempt to appropriate?

Pretty much the as above. I fact i know people like that. I 'm not a xenophobe . I just ask that certain items not be misused and trivialized

Quote:Okay, your position actually sounds very reasonable to me, and in many ways I think that native populations in the Americas have a much more legitimate claim to cultural appropriation than do black people who get pissed off about dreadlocks or something like that.

I won't comment on black American appropriation I fear I don't know enough to judge

---

Quote:How do you work that out?

Just because you can do something does not mean you should

---

Quote:Isis is not at all a horrible person.

In all instances no in this one yes . Just like sometimes i'm a horrible person

(June 7, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: In all instances no in this one yes . Just like sometimes i'm a horrible person

I'm going to need some evidence on that one. Why is Isis horrible? I just saw someone trying to have a reasonable discussion and getting shit thrown at her in return.

(June 7, 2017 at 6:37 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(June 7, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: In all instances no in this one yes . Just like sometimes i'm a horrible person

I'm going to need some evidence on that one. Why is Isis horrible? I just saw someone trying to have a reasonable discussion and getting shit thrown at her in return.

I said in this instances Isis is being horrible . Then you were not paying attention to what Isis said

(June 7, 2017 at 6:44 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(June 7, 2017 at 6:37 pm)Jesster Wrote: I'm going to need some evidence on that one. Why is Isis horrible? I just saw someone trying to have a reasonable discussion and getting shit thrown at her in return.

I said in this instances Isis is being horrible . Then you were not paying attention to what Isis said

I read what Isis said and thought it was fine. Please specify unless you would like to call me horrible as well.

(June 7, 2017 at 6:54 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(June 7, 2017 at 6:44 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: I said in this instances Isis is being horrible . Then you were not paying attention to what Isis said

I read what Isis said and thought it was fine. Please specify unless you would like to call me horrible as well.

Because she essentially said no matter how hurtful or culturally or contextually  insensitive it is . It is okay for  to do it. While agree I cannot  stop someone from doing it . It's  still a dick thing to do. If you didn't get that implication then I can't help you. And I resent the implication that I'm just calling someone horrible for it's own sake .

(June 7, 2017 at 7:04 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(June 7, 2017 at 6:54 pm)Jesster Wrote: I read what Isis said and thought it was fine. Please specify unless you would like to call me horrible as well.

Because she essentially said no matter how hurtful or culturally or contextually  insensitive it is . It is okay for  to do it. While agree I cannot  stop someone from doing it . It's  still a dick thing to do. If you didn't get that implication then I can't help you. And I resent the implication that I'm just calling someone horrible for it's own sake .

Resent all you want. If you are calling Isis horrible here, then you are calling me horrible. You started throwing that word out without stating why. I guess I should start acting horrible.

Isis also never said anything about hurting anyone, so you are straw-manning. I don't see how what she is doing is hurting anyone, either. That's your claim to back up.

(June 7, 2017 at 7:08 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(June 7, 2017 at 7:04 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Because she essentially said no matter how hurtful or culturally or contextually  insensitive it is . It is okay for  to do it. While agree I cannot  stop someone from doing it . It's  still a dick thing to do. If you didn't get that implication then I can't help you. And I resent the implication that I'm just calling someone horrible for it's own sake .

Resent all you want. If you are calling Isis horrible here, then you are calling me horrible. You started throwing that word out without stating why. I guess I should start acting horrible.

Isis also never said anything about hurting anyone. I don't see how what she is doing is hurting anyone, either. That's your claim to back up.

Sigh  I did state why . I also I this same context called myself horrible ( and I have been in several instances) So am I  arbitrarily  calling myself horrible?

Yup but it's clear that acts above would hurt people. And if you can't understand why it would be hurtful. I can't help you . Because i already covered this in my posts on this thread several times.

(June 7, 2017 at 7:18 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Sigh  I did state why .

Yes, after I asked you to clarify. You should have started with that. I'm still not convinced, though.

(June 7, 2017 at 7:18 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: I also I this same context called myself horrible ( and I have been in several instances) So am I  arbitrarily  calling myself horrible?

Don't care

(June 7, 2017 at 7:18 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Yup but it's clear that acts above would hurt people. And if you can't understand why it would be hurtful. I can't help you . Because i already covered this in my posts on this thread several times.

Clear how? You're just making bald assertions and pretending it's common sense. Stop being evasive and just back up your claims already. I'm not even throwing any arguments at you. I'm just trying to get you to clarify your reasoning. Your previous posts don't help in this context, either.

I'm starting to suspect that you can't answer. Prove my assumptions wrong.

(June 7, 2017 at 4:56 am)Isis Wrote: Anyone can buy a dream catcher or any other item from another culture (not necessarily just tribes) from any retailer for whatever reason. Nobody should feel bad about owning one, regardless of where they purchased it from.

I will buy whatever I want, eat what I want, learn whatever language I want, and perform spiritual rituals or a rain dance if I damned well please.

I see nothing horrible about doing any of these things if someone wants.
Apart from I find spiritual rituals and dream catchers to be bullshit and a waste of time that is, which I suppose is kind of horrible in a way but that's a separate issue.