(June 11, 2017 at 1:08 am)Zen Badger Wrote: Ah, I see.
So I have a good friend who's black, we call each other brother from another mother.
So is it ok then for me to call him nigger?

Possibly. There are white people who grew up in the black culture. Talking comedians, Ralphie May comes to mind. I would be surprised if it applied to you, but you could certainly ask.

1) The idea that a culture "owns" this or that word (or context) is silly. I get that many find the word offensive. I get the idea of blacks weakening the word by adopting it for their own use.

But in this context, Maher was clearly making a point insinuating that the Republican senator was the equivalent of a slave-owner. In that sense, his use of the word was unfortunate, but not racist. I don't understand why that is outweighed by the word being said by a white guy.

Saying that a culture owns a word is akin to saying a culture owns a thought or feeling. That strikes me as absurd.

2) Having never listened to Laura Schlesinger before, I didn't realize she was such a raging cunt.

I still consider myself schooled on the word by Richard Pryor in this video. I like Bill Maher a lot but I am sticking with this:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/searc...tion=click

Pryor had been visiting Africa

I really don't like this claim that white people "can't" say nigger. "Shouldn't" I can kind of understand, but "can't"? When someone says "can't", I get the idea that they may want me to get beat up if I do say it, so I'm taught a lesson, and that makes you no better than a Muslim telling people that they can't draw the Prophet. White people are going to continue using the word nigger/nigga and others can't tell us what to do. What you can do, is put pressure on people like Bill to betray his former way of thinking (he previously defended Sarah Silverman for using "chink" and "nigger" in her act) and cower to the SJW crowd because he wants to keep making that big money. If you don't like people using the word, boycott those people.


I understand that lots of blacks have been brought up and conditioned to think "we can never let whites get away with this", so I can understand them not liking white people using it, but at the same time, you have others who get extremely offended just by hearing someone on the news quoting the word, and you have the older generation of blacks that feel the sting of the word even when it's just other blacks using it. Many blacks don't give a damn and thought Bill's joke was funny and see people getting offended by it as oversensitive. The point I'm making here is that blacks have a wide variety of views when it comes to the word nigger. "You shouldn't/ can't do so and so because feelings" is not a legitimate argument. If I agree that only blacks should say the word, the older generation of blacks may find that view upsetting. If I agree that no one at all should use the word, then I may be offending younger blacks who love the word and see it as part of their identity. You can't please everyone. Instead of trying to please everyone, I go with intent. I can say whatever the hell I like, and if someone wants to say that I'm wrong for doing so, that's their problem and not something I'm concerned with.

I wouldn't call someone I don't know that word to their face and neither did Bill. He said the word on his show that people choose to watch or not watch. Bill is on record supporting Sarah Silverman's use of the words chink and nigger, so I wasn't shocked by what Bill said. I like the word nigger. Faggot (as in lame/ annoying), cunt, whore, etc I like as well. You give an inch to the SJWs and agree to stop saying "that's gay" or whatever, and the SJWs will never stop taking. They will never be happy and their attempt to restrict speech will never have an end point. First you agree to stop saying "that's gay" and before you know it, the SJWs are demanding that you stop using microagression words like sportsmanship, bossy, mother, father, and I think even the term politically correct itself was on some of those "words not to use on campus" lists. It's insanity and I will not give an inch.

My main objection is that the word is offensive(which it is) but it's ok to use if you're black.
Well no, it isn't.
Nigger quite simply has no other context, it only exists as an insult mean't to put black people in their place, at least in the minds of white supremacists.
And when I hear black rap music that uses the word prolifically (and I get to hear a lot) I have a hard time agreeing with the people that complain that the word is sooooo offensive...... unless they use it.

(June 12, 2017 at 4:16 am)Zen Badger Wrote: My main objection is that the word is offensive(which it is) but it's ok to use if you're black.
Well no, it isn't.
Nigger quite simply has no other context, it only exists as an insult mean't to put black people in their place, at least in the minds of white supremacists.
And when I hear black rap music that uses the word prolifically (and I get to hear a lot) I have a hard time agreeing with the people that complain that the word is sooooo offensive...... unless they use it.

How many times have you heard one atheist call another atheist a "heathen" or "baby eater", and how many other times have you heard a far right bigot not even say those same things but just say "atheist" and treat equate us to dictators like Hitler and Stalin and Po Pot. 

I agree "nigger" has a very horrible past as a usage, but just like others use the word "atheist" between us and we aren't using it as a slur, far right bigots do see "atheist" evil. 

It still amounts to there is a difference in context. I don'think it is right to judge blacks who do use it but certainly anyone can fight any bigoted usage of it.  Many blacks don't use it too, so again it depends on the individual, but I think any use of any pejorative not just that word and not just blacks, but any pejorative, can and often has been used by the target as a coping mechanism, not to uphold the bigots, but to flip the word.

"Gay" started out as meaning "happy"
Then it became a slur against homosexuals.
Today gays still call themselves gay despite the long term use as a slur.

So it is really not up to the outsider, or the supporter of that minority. 

It is also why I don't like some atheists avoiding calling themselves atheists, some are so afraid of the stigma of "atheist" some replace it with Humanist, or Freethinker or Bright. 

I don't make those equations to say the histories are the same between blacks and gays and atheists, but we are all minorities and as such there are times we can and do say things between us that we get and understand.

Giving my two cents on this matter; Nigger seems a horrible, loaded term. Calling someone Nigger is just awful.
That being said... When talking about the word itself, I don't feel inclined to say: "The N-word is a bad word." I'll say: "Nigger is a bad word."
And that is because I believe the context of words is what gives it their meaning. Nor I, nor other people, should call anyone nigger. But I don't feel like saying nigger as I am doing now is bad because it's not 'aimed' at anyone. I'm not labeling anyone. I'm not insulting anyone. I'm talking about the verb itself.
Maher's joke, I guess, walks a line with that. In he doesn't talk about it without meaning, he uses the meaning, but he directs it at his own expense. You could call that cheap. You could not think it funny. (I for one didn't think it was particularly funny, but hey.) But you can't say he directed it at anyone else as an insult, nor that it wasn't a joke. If aimed at anyone, it was at himself. He is at the bud of his own joke. If he were to call, I don't know, Obama for instance, a house nigger, in one of his jokes; that'd be different.
I didn't think it was a great joke. But I don't think he needed to apologize. I don't think he did anything wrong.

(June 12, 2017 at 7:07 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Giving my two cents on this matter; Nigger seems a horrible, loaded term. Calling someone Nigger is just awful.
That being said... When talking about the word itself, I don't feel inclined to say: "The N-word is a bad word." I'll say: "Nigger is a bad word."
And that is because I believe the context of words is what gives it their meaning. Nor I, nor other people, should call anyone nigger. But I don't feel like saying nigger as I am doing now is bad because it's not 'aimed' at anyone. I'm not labeling anyone. I'm not insulting anyone. I'm talking about the verb itself.
Maher's joke, I guess, walks a line with that. In he doesn't talk about it without meaning, he uses the meaning, but he directs it at his own expense.  You could call that cheap. You could not think it funny. (I for one didn't think it was particularly funny, but hey.) But you can't say he directed it at anyone else as an insult, nor that it wasn't a joke. If aimed at anyone, it was at himself. He is at the bud of his own joke. If he were to call, I don't know, Obama for instance, a house nigger, in one of his jokes; that'd be different.
I didn't think it was a great joke. But I don't think he needed to apologize. I don't think he did anything wrong.

I agree, I think the sane can tell the difference between when a word is being used out of hate, when it simply said without thinking, and when it is used between those in on it done to endear. Bill is hardly a bigot or racist, it was simply not thought out.

Yes he should. And he did. 

Just a couple weeks ago, in my real personal life, I was at the local shopping center a few blocks from my house waiting for food outside a Chinese place. I started talking to an Asian guy who said his parents migrated to Hawaii and brought him there when he was a kid. Without thinking I said "You are a dreamer", that was a stupid remark on my part, because he very well could have had legal status. NO it was not racist on my part, but it was a case of me not thinking first. I saw him again two days ago at the same place, I apologized. "Dreamer" in any case is a term mostly used by Hispanics brought here undocumented. So it was still not a well thought out comment on my part.

(June 11, 2017 at 10:06 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: 1) The idea that a culture "owns" this or that word (or context) is silly. I get that many find the word offensive. I get the idea of blacks weakening the word by adopting it for their own use.

But in this context, Maher was clearly making a point insinuating that the Republican senator was the equivalent of a slave-owner. In that sense, his use of the word was unfortunate, but not racist. I don't understand why that is outweighed by the word being said by a white guy.

Saying that a culture owns a word is akin to saying a culture owns a thought or feeling. That strikes me as absurd.

2) Having never listened to Laura Schlesinger before, I didn't realize she was such a raging cunt.

Yes, overall Dr. Laura is a cunt, I agree. At the the same time as a Self-help personality her schtick is to berate anyone who considers themselves a victim of any kind. She takes a radical and unsympathetic position with callers to take control of their own lives. Her appeal is that occationally she says the harsh truth that listeners wish they could get away with sometimes. I'm thinking her about those coworkers that come by my desk to whine and complain about their job and I just sit there thinking to myself if you are so unhappy why don't you find another job.

You larger point is true. No one can own a symbol. They have a life of their own.

(June 12, 2017 at 7:30 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 12, 2017 at 7:07 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Giving my two cents on this matter; Nigger seems a horrible, loaded term. Calling someone Nigger is just awful.
That being said... When talking about the word itself, I don't feel inclined to say: "The N-word is a bad word." I'll say: "Nigger is a bad word."
And that is because I believe the context of words is what gives it their meaning. Nor I, nor other people, should call anyone nigger. But I don't feel like saying nigger as I am doing now is bad because it's not 'aimed' at anyone. I'm not labeling anyone. I'm not insulting anyone. I'm talking about the verb itself.
Maher's joke, I guess, walks a line with that. In he doesn't talk about it without meaning, he uses the meaning, but he directs it at his own expense.  You could call that cheap. You could not think it funny. (I for one didn't think it was particularly funny, but hey.) But you can't say he directed it at anyone else as an insult, nor that it wasn't a joke. If aimed at anyone, it was at himself. He is at the bud of his own joke. If he were to call, I don't know, Obama for instance, a house nigger, in one of his jokes; that'd be different.
I didn't think it was a great joke. But I don't think he needed to apologize. I don't think he did anything wrong.

I agree, I think the sane can tell the difference between when a word is being used out of hate, when it simply said without thinking, and when it is used between those in on it done to endear. Bill is hardly a bigot or racist, it was simply not thought out.

Yes he should. And he did. 

Just a couple weeks ago, in my real personal life, I was at the local shopping center a few blocks from my house waiting for food outside a Chinese place. I started talking to an Asian guy who said his parents migrated to Hawaii and brought him there when he was a kid. Without thinking I said "You are a dreamer", that was a stupid remark on my part, because he very well could have had legal status. NO it was not racist on my part, but it was a case of me not thinking first. I saw him again two days ago at the same place, I apologized. "Dreamer" in any case is a term mostly used by Hispanics brought here undocumented. So it was still not a well thought out comment on my part.

But that's not really the same though, is it? I wasn't aware of the term Dreamer, but I can guess it's a slur in how you explain it. But you, while I'm sure you're not racist, called someone a dreamer. Maher didn't call anyone else a house nigger. If I understand correctly, you apologized because you felt bad about using a slur against someone and maybe made an assumption about him. Maher, however, used self-deprecation. Who does he have to apologize to? He didn't use it on anyone in particular. So who? The black community as a whole? If so, for what? The joke, whilst again not particularly funny in my book, only works because Maher feels that it's not okay to label someone with 'house nigger'. The message of the joke isn't that it's okay to use that term in regards to people. If anything it builds on the fact that we know it's not okay.

If I, for instance, make the joke: 'Q: What's the best thing about having sex with twenty-five year olds? A: That there's twenty of them.' This joke doesn't approve of pedophelia. It works on the fact that we are uncomfortable with pedophilia. It respects that we as a species don't like it and that's why it can shock us. In that way the joke doesn't build the message 'pedophilia is good', it builds the message 'pedophilia is bad'.