(June 12, 2017 at 8:51 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(June 12, 2017 at 7:30 am)Brian37 Wrote: I agree, I think the sane can tell the difference between when a word is being used out of hate, when it simply said without thinking, and when it is used between those in on it done to endear. Bill is hardly a bigot or racist, it was simply not thought out.

Yes he should. And he did. 

Just a couple weeks ago, in my real personal life, I was at the local shopping center a few blocks from my house waiting for food outside a Chinese place. I started talking to an Asian guy who said his parents migrated to Hawaii and brought him there when he was a kid. Without thinking I said "You are a dreamer", that was a stupid remark on my part, because he very well could have had legal status. NO it was not racist on my part, but it was a case of me not thinking first. I saw him again two days ago at the same place, I apologized. "Dreamer" in any case is a term mostly used by Hispanics brought here undocumented. So it was still not a well thought out comment on my part.

But that's not really the same though, is it? I wasn't aware of the term Dreamer, but I can guess it's a slur in how you explain it. But you, while I'm sure you're not racist, called someone a dreamer. Maher didn't call anyone else a house nigger. If I understand correctly, you apologized because you felt bad about using a slur against someone and maybe made an assumption about him. Maher, however, used self-deprecation. Who does he have to apologize to? He didn't use it on anyone in particular. So who? The black community as a whole? If so, for what? The joke, whilst again not particularly funny in my book, only works because Maher feels that it's not okay to label someone with 'house nigger'. The message of the joke isn't that it's okay to use that term in regards to people. If anything it builds on the fact that we know it's not okay.

If I, for instance, make the joke: 'Q: What's the best thing about having sex with twenty-five year olds? A: That there's twenty of them.' This joke doesn't approve of pedophelia. It works on the fact that we are uncomfortable with pedophilia. It respects that we as a species don't like it and that's why it can shock us. In that way the joke doesn't build the message 'pedophilia is good', it builds the message 'pedophilia is bad'.

You missed my point, "Dreamer" is NOT a slur, but it was still thoughtless on my part because I didn't know the guy's legal status first off, secondly it does not refer to Asians but mainly Hispanics and Latinos. 

Now you really want to hear a story from my past that was REALLY EVEN WORSE AND BONEHEADED ON MY PART. 

Here you go.....

I had a friend who was in the DC music scene back in the late 80s early 90s. He took me to a music club called "9:30". A all black rock band played called "Living Color" if anyone remembers that.

So I got drunk off my ass, really enjoyed the band, my friend knew them, took me back stage. 

Next morning I get a call from my friend, shouting at me over the phone, "YOU SON OF A BITCH"..... "DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DID?"

He told me what I had said, and I was MORTIFIED at what I said "If I had closed my eyes I never would have known you were black."..... What I really meant, was it was great to see diversity in music, BUT that is not how I put it, and my friend was completely justified at his anger, and I am also lucky the band members knew I was drunk and didn't get my ass kicked."

The point is, when you say something stupid it is ok to admit it and apologize for it.

(June 12, 2017 at 9:08 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 12, 2017 at 8:51 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: But that's not really the same though, is it? I wasn't aware of the term Dreamer, but I can guess it's a slur in how you explain it. But you, while I'm sure you're not racist, called someone a dreamer. Maher didn't call anyone else a house nigger. If I understand correctly, you apologized because you felt bad about using a slur against someone and maybe made an assumption about him. Maher, however, used self-deprecation. Who does he have to apologize to? He didn't use it on anyone in particular. So who? The black community as a whole? If so, for what? The joke, whilst again not particularly funny in my book, only works because Maher feels that it's not okay to label someone with 'house nigger'. The message of the joke isn't that it's okay to use that term in regards to people. If anything it builds on the fact that we know it's not okay.

If I, for instance, make the joke: 'Q: What's the best thing about having sex with twenty-five year olds? A: That there's twenty of them.' This joke doesn't approve of pedophelia. It works on the fact that we are uncomfortable with pedophilia. It respects that we as a species don't like it and that's why it can shock us. In that way the joke doesn't build the message 'pedophilia is good', it builds the message 'pedophilia is bad'.

You missed my point, "Dreamer" is NOT a slur, but it was still thoughtless on my part because I didn't know the guy's legal status first off, secondly it does not refer to Asians but mainly Hispanics and Latinos. 

Now you really want to hear a story from my past that was REALLY EVEN WORSE AND BONEHEADED ON MY PART. 

Here you go.....

I had a friend who was in the DC music scene back in the late 80s early 90s. He took me to a music club called "9:30". A all black rock band played called "Living Color" if anyone remembers that.

So I got drunk off my ass, really enjoyed the band, my friend knew them, took me back stage. 

Next morning I get a call from my friend, shouting at me over the phone, "YOU SON OF A BITCH"..... "DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DID?"

He told me what I had said, and I was MORTIFIED at what I said "If I had closed my eyes I never would have known you were black."..... What I really meant, was it was great to see diversity in music, BUT that is not how I put it, and my friend was completely justified at his anger, and I am also lucky the band members knew I was drunk and didn't get my ass kicked."

The point is, when you say something stupid it is ok to admit it and apologize for it.

I guess I agree with that. I just don't think what maher said was stupid, as such. Not all that funny, yeah. But not stupid.

Kind of like the way people on this forum bandy around the word "retard" i.e. creatard, etc. For those of us, like me who work with the mentally challenged, we find it hurtful and stigmatizing. At the same time we teach our members that it says more about the name-callers, their lack of class and ignorance and nothing about the mentally challenged. They won't let other people take away their dignity as human beings. In that way they are stronger than more noble than anyone using the word retard or derivatives like creatard.

(June 12, 2017 at 7:59 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes, overall Dr. Laura is a cunt, I agree. At the the same time as a Self-help personality her schtick  is to berate anyone who considers themselves a victim of any kind. She takes a radical and unsympathetic position with callers to take control of their own lives. Her appeal is that occationally she says the harsh truth that listeners wish they could get away with sometimes. I'm thinking her about those coworkers that come by my desk to whine and complain about their job and I just sit there thinking to myself if you are so unhappy why don't you find another job.

Sounds like her schtick is being a cunt. There's a time and place for harsh truths. Reading the transcript above, I don't see much she says that's apt or to the point regarding race. I see her telling a black person to shut up about racism. No doubt it's entirely a coincidence that Schlesinger is white.

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(June 12, 2017 at 4:16 am)Zen Badger Wrote: My main objection is that the word is offensive(which it is) but it's ok to use if you're black.
Well no, it isn't.
Nigger quite simply has no other context, it only exists as an insult mean't to put black people in their place, at least in the minds of white supremacists.
And when I hear black rap music that uses the word prolifically (and I get to hear a lot) I have a hard time agreeing with the people that complain that the word is sooooo offensive...... unless they use it.

Or take it in a larger sense. Let's grant for the moment that only blacks can say "nigger / nigga". The idea of a gangsta rapper complaining about being offended is hilarious ... many OGs built careers on offending the fuck out of people, Cube included, and now Cube wants his feelings considered?

(June 12, 2017 at 9:25 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Kind of like the way people on this forum bandy around the word "retard" i.e. creatard, etc. For those of us, like me who work with the mentally challenged, we find it hurtful and stigmatizing. At the same time we teach our members that it says more about the name-callers, their lack of class and ignorance and nothing about the mentally challenged. They won't let other people take away their dignity as human beings. In that way they are stronger than more noble than anyone using the word retard or derivatives like creatard.

I think devaluing the comment and its maker is a great way to educate people about the stupidity of cruel and hurtful words. So many offensive things are said daily and responding to dumbass gives them more power. I love your perspective your teaching.

(June 12, 2017 at 9:25 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Kind of like the way people on this forum bandy around the word "retard" i.e. creatard, etc. For those of us, like me who work with the mentally challenged, we find it hurtful and stigmatizing. At the same time we teach our members that it says more about the name-callers, their lack of class and ignorance and nothing about the mentally challenged. They won't let other people take away their dignity as human beings. In that way they are stronger than more noble than anyone using the word retard or derivatives like creatard.

Yea but there is a limit to taking things out of context. Nobody sane when using that is equating that to the mentally challenged. It is merely a blunt way of saying your logic sucks, so it isn't remotely the same context.

If you are trying to justify a old fantastic claim out of an old writing that has no basis in scientific fact I see calling that "retarded" as being no different than saying "That's bullshit".

And yea, if you think the earth was created in 6 literal days and or think the earth is only 6 to 10,000 years old, then yea, you are a creatard. If you instead claim the universe was farted into existence by a giant invisible unicorn, I'd call you a unitard.

But no, sorry, that isn't the same one bit as poking fun of the mentally challenged. Everyone agrees nobody should do that. 

I am a liberal, but even I think PC goes too far. And my fear is that my well intended fellow liberals are going to put the far right bigots in a position of using the "never say ever" position against us.

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(June 12, 2017 at 9:32 am)JamieB Wrote:

(June 12, 2017 at 9:25 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Kind of like the way people on this forum bandy around the word "retard" i.e. creatard, etc. For those of us, like me who work with the mentally challenged, we find it hurtful and stigmatizing. At the same time we teach our members that it says more about the name-callers, their lack of class and ignorance and nothing about the mentally challenged. They won't let other people take away their dignity as human beings. In that way they are stronger than more noble than anyone using the word retard or derivatives like creatard.

I think devaluing the comment and its maker is a great way to educate people about the stupidity of cruel and hurtful words. So many offensive things are said daily and responding to dumbass gives them more power. I love your perspective your teaching.

I love this intent, but we don't live in a utopia and if everyone got to dictate to others about what can or cannot be said by law, there is not one person reading this that could not think of something they'd rather not hear. The problem with "never offend" is that is always point of view and subjective. You cant have blanket solutions to solve that problem because then it becomes "who gets to decide"? 

Some theists find the mere word "atheist" offensive, and would consider the existence of this website offensive or the existence of ANY atheist website offensive. Do you really want those people to to decide for you in that case? Could you imagine what a government full of nothing but Pat Robertsons would do to atheists and even gays and liberals in general?

Quote:Neo-Scholastic Wrote: [url=https://atheistforums.org/post-1566728.html#pid1566728][/url]Kind of like the way people on this forum bandy around the word "retard" i.e. creatard, etc. For those of us, like me who work with the mentally challenged, we find it hurtful and stigmatizing. At the same time we teach our members that it says more about the name-callers, their lack of class and ignorance and nothing about the mentally challenged. They won't let other people take away their dignity as human beings. In that way they are stronger than more noble than anyone using the word retard or derivatives like creatard

Accept it has nothing to do with insulting the mentally challenged . It's an attack on people who say stupid things  or believe stupid things. Not a reference to anyone suffering a legitimate mental issue .

Wouldn't be able to put my finger on it now, but somewhere in Scripture is an admonition against willful ignorance. So that's where, as they say, I get off, on critiquing the religiousites for lacking intellectual vigor.

(June 12, 2017 at 11:17 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:Neo-Scholastic Wrote: [url=https://atheistforums.org/post-1566728.html#pid1566728][/url]Kind of like the way people on this forum bandy around the word "retard" i.e. creatard, etc. For those of us, like me who work with the mentally challenged, we find it hurtful and stigmatizing. At the same time we teach our members that it says more about the name-callers, their lack of class and ignorance and nothing about the mentally challenged. They won't let other people take away their dignity as human beings. In that way they are stronger than more noble than anyone using the word retard or derivatives like creatard

Accept it has nothing to do with insulting the mentally challenged . It's an attack on people who say stupid things  or believe stupid things. Not a reference to anyone suffering a legitimate mental issue .

I agree, in the context of saying "retard" to someone merely saying something that is bullshit and factless, it is saying you are resistant to facts, much like if you are fireman wearing flame resistant cloths, you are retarding the fire. We are not equating the person to being mentally challenged, we are saying your desire dreamy eyed delusion is causing one to retard facts in favor of naked assertions.

"retard" also has the definition of deflecting something, and that definition has nothing to do with stigmatizing the mentally challenged. 

Just like the word "fly" can refer to an insect, but also can mean "that person is sexy, or is wearing something amazing, or owns something amazing."

"I am going to kill that fly"

"That women is fly"

"That suit the guy is wearing is fly"

Just like the word "gay" can be used as a slur. Long before it was, it merely meant happy. And even today gay can be used as merely meaning happy, or it can also be used as a slur, or it also can be used to refer to someones sexuality.

CONTEXT matters. I really do get down on the all or nothing attitude. If you don't know how someone is using a word, ask, don't assume.

(June 12, 2017 at 12:08 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 12, 2017 at 11:17 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Accept it has nothing to do with insulting the mentally challenged . It's an attack on people who say stupid things  or believe stupid things. Not a reference to anyone suffering a legitimate mental issue .

I agree, in the context of saying "retard" to someone merely saying something that is bullshit and factless, it is saying you are resistant to facts, much like if you are fireman wearing flame resistant cloths, you are retarding the fire. We are not equating the person to being mentally challenged, we are saying your desire dreamy eyed delusion is causing one to retard facts in favor of naked assertions.

"retard" also has the definition of deflecting something, and that definition has nothing to do with stigmatizing the mentally challenged. 

Just like the word "fly" can refer to an insect, but also can mean "that person is sexy, or is wearing something amazing, or owns something amazing."

"I am going to kill that fly"

"That women is fly"

"That suit the guy is wearing is fly"

Just like the word "gay" can be used as a slur. Long before it was, it merely meant happy. And even today gay can be used as merely meaning happy, or it can also be used as a slur, or it also can be used to refer to someones sexuality.

CONTEXT matters. I really do get down on the all or nothing attitude. If you don't know how someone is using a word, ask, don't assume.

My dictionary does not say that fly can be about someone's "fly" clothing, and I think this makes you a hypocrite. "Nigger" to me has many meanings, and to me it isn't even necessarily referring to black people. Language has evolved and the word nigger can be used in many different ways, kind of like the word fuck. I use nigger as a term of endearment for my white best friend, so the word doesn't even necessarily mean "black person". It can just mean any person, and you can't tell me that I'm wrong about that definition because you brought slang into this with the word "fly". When I say "that's so gay" or "stop being such a fag", in slang that means "that's so lame" or "stop being so annoying". Why can you use the slang version of fly but I can't use the slang version of gay? Homosexuals do not own that word. Some words in the english language have over 400 definitions, so why can't the word gay have more than two definitions (homosexual and happy)? Language evolves, as you obviously understand with your use of the slang term fly.

And about the Hitler thing, Christians do not equate us to Hitler. They use Hitler and others as a response to our claim that religion causes a lot of death/ poisons everything. They are just making the point that atheists do bad things too. It's no different than if I were to point out that Hitler was a vegetarian. By doing that I wouldn't be trying to say that all vegetarians are as bad as Hitler.