Quote:As a Muslim, I also consider that some aspects of the Qur'an are strong arguments, one of them is the fact that it is inimitable ( no human mind can make a similar literary achievement ).

Ah.  You mean aside from whoever wrote it the first time?

(June 24, 2017 at 9:10 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote: Hello everyone ,

This is my first thread on the forum, and I hope to get convincing responses to a question I stumbled upon concerning atheism.

Assuming no God can be proven by logic, how can one trust his judgment about religions/existence of god if his mind itself cannot be trusted ? How can I trust any atheist/agnostic's claim that all kinds of proofs that have been given by scholars or philosophers of religion throughout history are false ?

Therefore, rejecting belief is in itself belief that your mind possesses some kind of an absolute power that makes you distinguish between good arguments and fallacies. I don't want to talk about evolution in this thread, but since the brain is the product of random alterations of our genome, how can it be trustworthy ? 

You'll say to me that this power is simply logial reasoning, but, you see, logic is based on axioms, i.e. basic FACTS taken for granted. What are you taking for granted to refute any logical argument whatsoever ? And why do you TRUST your thinking in the first place ?

Presumably you do not believe that all gods who Humans have ever worshiped exist. If you don't, you must have some way of deciding that only your god exists. Atheists only go one step farther than monotheists.

(June 24, 2017 at 9:10 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote: Hello everyone ,

This is my first thread on the forum, and I hope to get convincing responses to a question I stumbled upon concerning atheism.

Assuming no God can be proven by logic, how can one trust his judgment about religions/existence of god if his mind itself cannot be trusted ? How can I trust any atheist/agnostic's claim that all kinds of proofs that have been given by scholars or philosophers of religion throughout history are false ?

Therefore, rejecting belief is in itself belief that your mind possesses some kind of an absolute power that makes you distinguish between good arguments and fallacies. I don't want to talk about evolution in this thread, but since the brain is the product of random alterations of our genome, how can it be trustworthy ? 

You'll say to me that this power is simply logial reasoning, but, you see, logic is based on axioms, i.e. basic FACTS taken for granted. What are you taking for granted to refute any logical argument whatsoever ? And why do you TRUST your thinking in the first place ?

An axiom is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments. It isn't taken as a FACT. I trust my thinking (for the most part) because I can base it on the physical reality I see/feel/hear around me. Yes, those transducers can give me false information. How have you lived to your current age, with your "untrustworthy" brain?

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(June 24, 2017 at 9:55 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:As a Muslim, I also consider that some aspects of the Qur'an are strong arguments, one of them is the fact that it is inimitable ( no human mind can make a similar literary achievement ).

Ah.  You mean aside from whoever wrote it the first time?

Well, shit, Min ninja'd me. If I'd read down to this point before posting, I wouldn't have posted. OP, Islam is no more true than an Invisible Pink Unicorn, or Scientology (which is demonstrably false, as people have seen the formation of that "religion" in real time. Ascribing to a religion that has its roots in antiquity doesn't make it any more true. If you live in the US, did you vote for Donald Trump? If not, why not? This is an actual homework assignment.

(June 24, 2017 at 9:27 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: If that's the case, how can you trust your thinking when it tells you there's a god?

I don't. I need to assume that my brain is the creation of an absolute power, otherwise my judgment about the matter is untrustworthy.


Without this basic assumption i.e. my brain is created by a perfect being, no logical statement can be proved or rejected, at least this is what I think.

Great; now demonstrate the justification for what you think.

(June 24, 2017 at 9:10 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote: Hello everyone ,

This is my first thread on the forum, and I hope to get convincing responses to a question I stumbled upon concerning atheism.

Assuming no God can be proven by logic, how can one trust his judgment about religions/existence of god if his mind itself cannot be trusted ? How can I trust any atheist/agnostic's claim that all kinds of proofs that have been given by scholars or philosophers of religion throughout history are false ?

Therefore, rejecting belief is in itself belief that your mind possesses some kind of an absolute power that makes you distinguish between good arguments and fallacies. I don't want to talk about evolution in this thread, but since the brain is the product of random alterations of our genome, how can it be trustworthy ? 

You'll say to me that this power is simply logial reasoning, but, you see, logic is based on axioms, i.e. basic FACTS taken for granted. What are you taking for granted to refute any logical argument whatsoever ? And why do you TRUST your thinking in the first place ?

Surely an agnostic's claims are that they don't know if any proof has ever been given correctly about god.

I'm not asking you to trust my thinking, but my thinking is that I can't speak Arabic, I have no interest in learning Arabic and the quran translated to English doesn't sound special to me.

The problem that you're talking about is actually a problem that faces Muslim claims rather than agnostic claims.

Your claim is that you know the quran is perfect, that you know Muhammad was perfect and all the other prophets, yet you couldn't possibly know what is perfect unless you have perfect judgement which you don't.

NB: Atheism is merely a non-belief in whatever people claim to be "their personal god" -whatever that is, which doesn't get defined. Define yours for us.

(June 24, 2017 at 9:10 pm)Parsim0ny Wrote: Hello everyone ,

This is my first thread on the forum, and I hope to get convincing responses to a question I stumbled upon concerning atheism.

Assuming no God can be proven by logic, how can one trust his judgment about religions/existence of god if his mind itself cannot be trusted ? How can I trust any atheist/agnostic's claim that all kinds of proofs that have been given by scholars or philosophers of religion throughout history are false ?

Therefore, rejecting belief is in itself belief that your mind possesses some kind of an absolute power that makes you distinguish between good arguments and fallacies. I don't want to talk about evolution in this thread, but since the brain is the product of random alterations of our genome, how can it be trustworthy ? 

You'll say to me that this power is simply logial reasoning, but, you see, logic is based on axioms, i.e. basic FACTS taken for granted. What are you taking for granted to refute any logical argument whatsoever ? And why do you TRUST your thinking in the first place ?

You've got it all backwards, because you think there's some kind of rational debate happening one way or the other. But nobody here is really going out and attempting to demonstrate that God does not exist.

If you are sure God exists, then fine.  If you want me to believe God exists, you'll have to demonstrate that God is more than an idea.  That's your burden to carry.

If I want to enter your church and make people people God does NOT exist, then the burden of proof will be on me.  But I don't care enough about churchgoers or the God idea to do that. I'm simply not invested enough in that issue to do more than make a couple replies on a forum like this one.

For not trusting your own thinking, you sure are making a lot of assumptions... which come from your own thoughts.

Now who is contradicting themselves?

(June 24, 2017 at 9:55 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:As a Muslim, I also consider that some aspects of the Qur'an are strong arguments, one of them is the fact that it is inimitable ( no human mind can make a similar literary achievement ).

Ah.  You mean aside from whoever wrote it the first time?

Whatever you think about the prophet of Islam, you'll probably agree with me that he cannot be naive enough to challenge every single Arab tribe in the region on the one thing they master the most : their language. If he was really a false prophet, lots of books similar to the Qur'an would exist today made by all the brilliant minds that encountered Muhammad.