No, it's what I always write unless I'm having fun.

(June 26, 2017 at 12:53 pm)KerimF Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 10:04 am)Whateverist Wrote:

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I can't agree that we have no choice but to follow the role embedded in our nature (my bolded).  At best I think you'll find our nature consists of a constellation of predispositions and an assortment of interests not all of which are even known consciously by us.  These vie with one another chaotically.  Even if one subscribed to a theory of determinism I would think the calculus required to predict how all these become resolved in ones life is beyond anyone's understanding.  Therefore it would be naive to suppose that each action a person takes was ever inevitable from any possible point of view - including a divine one.

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Not addressed to me but I can't help but make a plug for self reliance here.  Of course I trust my personal observations and logical reasoning (and intuition for that matter) more than of anyone else.  What choice do I or anyone else have?  If I am incapable of applying my own judgement directly what chance would I have in choosing the correct source of guidance?  Accept no substitutes: we each have a sensory cognitive array on par with anyone else's.  No expert, living or dead, ever started off better equipped than ourselves.  Rather than seek a shortcut by looking over the shoulders of others to crib their answers I suggest we make our own choices.  Right or wrong, we have a better chance of eventually going right when we allow the consequences of our own choices feed back on our own impulses rather than on those that never issued from us in the first place.

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In my experience most atheists like myself do not say 'God doesn't exist'.  They merely never get a satisfactory answer to what it is "a god" refers to.  We then go back about our business knowing that in the minds of those who asked, we now meet the description of one who does not believe in 'god'.  But it was never the case that belief was withheld from any actual god.  From a myriad of descriptions given for 'god', not one of one of them could ever be demonstrated.  Your typical atheist is simply someone getting on with their life who has stopped waiting for a coherent answer to his return question "what is a god?"  But apart from the question "do we believe in god X" it would not have come up.

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You did well.
And you are the first person I met on the internet (among theists and atheists) who says clearly that he doesn't have any Elite (and books/references written by some Elite) to trust more than he trusts himself.

For instance, is it the first time you write something like this (in atheistforums in the least; after being a member since many years)?

Is this your first time on the internet? Nobody I've talked to outside of straw men in Christian propaganda shitshows does that 'elite' crap you're talking about. Where the hell did you find those weirdos who do, or did you just think they were doing that when they weren't as is a common occurrence?

(June 26, 2017 at 12:10 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 7:07 am)KerimF Wrote: To become a professional designer (in electronics) I had to accept notions of non-existing objects.

The geometrical dot is a simple example. By definition, it has no dimensions. But the entire Geometry is based on it; a non-existing object.
Also in geometry, I didn’t mind accepting unreachable objects as well, as the intersection of two parallels at infinity.
And, although the square root of the algebraic number (-1) doesn’t exit, it was given a name/symbol as (i) or (j) in order to use it and simply the solution of many existing real problems.
 
But on the other hand, millions of people on earth live normally without the need to learn, for example, Math and accept (work with) its various definitions of non-existing and unreachable objects.
 
So, obviously, if someone didn’t feel the need to know anything about the Will/Power behind his existence, it is better for him not to think about it in the first place; as all pre-programmed living things do. In fact, the instructions of the Will/Power which is behind the creation of the universe are embedded, since always, in every living cell (as DNA for example). In other words, those who are born of the flesh only can know, by themselves, how to serve the world as they are supposed to do.
 
...

Before I go on, I wish I can hear some serious negative comments because such replies help me update my personal set of knowledge, most of the time. Thank you in advance.
 
Kerim

If I could understand what the fuck you were trying to say I'd probably have some negative comments. But I'll just go by your geometry example and give the usual anti-theist spiel. Yes, all of those things are nonexistent objects (hell, NUMBERS are nonexistent objects) but the difference between math and deities is that one of them has practical application and utility in life and the others do not and in fact only impede it at every turn.

You say it and I agree with you.
A rational person, as most people are, shouldn't lose his time thinking about things that are not useful to his nature (to the structure he is made of) in the first place.

On the other hand, if someone gets a computer as a present and likes to use it for playing computer games only, would he be interested in testing all its functions while searching any available information about it that are provided by its original maker (usually a company)? He would be greatly satisfied just in playing games on it, till it will be broken.

But if a professional engineer got a powerful advanced computer, he won't hesitate learning almost everything about it and he would be glad if he got useful hints provided, in a way or another, by its maker.

Obviously this analogy is not perfect because both computers, when dead, will be thrown, sooner or later, into fire... to return them back to their raw state.
Does this fire has anything to do with the eternal torture place called Hell? Of course not, Hell is created by men to scare other men as some parents do with their children when they were kids.
But this fire reminds me the expression used in an ancient story "The Everlasting Fire". Indeed, fire is much like the black holes that have one-way ticket with no return. (For instance, I heard that one-way tickets are also available to travel into outer space).

(June 26, 2017 at 10:31 am)KerimF Wrote:

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(June 26, 2017 at 7:55 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I mean just what I said. I can consider new evidence and then accept it if it seems trustworthy. My personal observations and reason are compared to the new evidence on a case by case basis, trusted source or not. 
If your talking about the religious sheep and buying the promise of heaven (safe?), I agree. In my view that does not make them correct. I consider them manipulated and deluded.

I am afraid I met many people who are also happy in following (believing in), as good sheep do, non-religious Elite who are privileged to address the world's masses in the name of Science and earthly Promises/Ideals. These Elite are actually complementing the role of the various religious Elite since many centuries.

Are any of the non-religious Elite promising eternal happiness or eternal torture based on how you conform to a man made gods ideals?

(June 26, 2017 at 2:03 pm)KerimF Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:10 pm)Astonished Wrote: If I could understand what the fuck you were trying to say I'd probably have some negative comments. But I'll just go by your geometry example and give the usual anti-theist spiel. Yes, all of those things are nonexistent objects (hell, NUMBERS are nonexistent objects) but the difference between math and deities is that one of them has practical application and utility in life and the others do not and in fact only impede it at every turn.

You say it and I agree with you.
A rational person, as most people are, shouldn't lose his time thinking about things that are not useful to his nature (to the structure he is made of) in the first place.

On the other hand, if someone gets a computer as a present and likes to use it for playing computer games only, would he be interested in testing all its functions while searching any available information about it that are provided by its original maker (usually a company)? He would be greatly satisfied just in playing games on it, till it will be broken.

But if a professional engineer got a powerful advanced computer, he won't hesitate learning almost everything about it and he would be glad if he got useful hints provided, in a way or another, by its maker.

Obviously this analogy is not perfect because both computers, when dead, will be thrown, sooner or later, into fire... to return them back to their raw state.
Does this fire has anything to do with the eternal torture place called Hell? Of course not, Hell is created by men to scare other men as some parents do with their children when they were kids.
But this fire reminds me the expression used in an ancient story "The Everlasting Fire". Indeed, fire is much like the black holes that have one-way ticket with no return. (For instance, I heard that one-way tickets are also available to travel into outer space).

So you're just presupposing there's more to everything? What basis do you have for that? What empirical data do you have to justify that assumption? What empirical data can you study to concretely learn anything about this supposed creator/designer so that it's more than just an abstract concept with no meaning and ultimately just wastes your time and how did you come by this information that 7.1 billion other people have failed to discover? Otherwise are you just contemplating something completely imaginary and making things up as you go as a means of amusement? I'm honestly still not sure at all that I understand what the hell it is you're getting at. Sounds like the watch-watchmaker thing on a beach where every grain of sand is a watch against an ocean where all the water is watches.

Is this the return of Little Ricky? I'm waiting for the emojis.

Why does this guy keep repeating over and over that he is an engineer? Status, ego, somehow better than? Just waiting for IQ.

Bump:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:03 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Actually I would be more interested in your understanding of it.

Are you aware of the difference between "I believe X doesn't exist" and "I don't believe X exists"?

(June 26, 2017 at 3:18 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Bump:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:03 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Actually I would be more interested in your understanding of it.

Are you aware of the difference between "I believe X doesn't exist" and "I don't believe X exists"?

Dude, stop hitting yourself!

Everyone else does; I was feeling left out...