(July 28, 2011 at 4:20 am)Napoleon Wrote: Everyone goes on about how much of a bigot Pat Condell is. Would someone care to enlighten me? I haven't thus far heard anything Pat has said which I totally disagree with. Or any time have I heard him contradict himself.

I take Padraic's points, but I don't think Mr. Condell is wrong with what he's saying. He's not condoning some voilence and saying it's ok for other violence, seems pretty clear to me that he is talking about the recent norwegian attacks because it's relevant to this point in time and the premise of the video.
So Padraic if you'd like to clear up exactly what it is which makes Pat a bigot in this video then it would be great. Btw it's only natural he has to speak somewhat about Islam when the key pillar of belief for that murderer was a belief which Pat Condell shares. And I share. That Islam is evil. The only difference is, is that murderer somehow decides it's right to kill innocent people over it whereas Pat just makes Youtube videos.


Seriously people, anyone care to enlighten me as to why Pat Condell seems to have so many haters? What's the beef?

OK,it's not complex; Condell makes sweeping generalisations about Islam, a faith with over one BILLION followers.His broad charactertisations of Islam and Muslims are not supported by evidence.

Eg We have a moderate Muslim here in Rayaan. That decent man is in fact typical of the many Muslims I knew well when living in a Muslim country .(Malaysia)

From Wikipedia;

Quote:A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, religion or spirituality, nationality, inter-regional prejudice, gender and sexual orientation, homelessness, various medical disorders particularly behavioral disorders and addictive disorders. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

Pat Condell comes across to me as a fearful little man,spewing his closed minded hatred over anyone who will listen.


I don't hate the silly old fart.He's not my enemy;he has not harmed me and I don't see him as a threat.I don't think about him enough to hate him..To be blunt, I really could not care less is he gets run over by a passing tank,spontaneously combusts or indeed,is bitten by a rabid wahhabi Muslim.


Bored now,have wasted far too much time on the batshit nuttery of Mr Condell. Perfectly happy to agree to disagree with Nappy or anyone else

(July 28, 2011 at 4:20 am)Napoleon Wrote: Seriously people, anyone care to enlighten me as to why Pat Condell seems to have so many haters? What's the beef?

Have you watched his other videos???

Or the "Pat Condell is an Ignorant Hypocrite" videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3LLt8PXBxA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLCEAgnKwzw

@Pad

Okay, I have one major gripe with what you said. You make an assumption that Pat Condell is making sweeping generalisations about muslims. Islam? Arguable. But muslims? I've never seen Pat dissing ordinary muslims, he's always made his arguments towards ISLAM as a religion. If you can find me a specific incident of Pat generalising muslims then be my guest and post it here. Otherwise I've always been under the impression that Pat has had beef with Islam, not necessarily the everyday person who might believe it. Sure he probably thinks they're brainwashed nitwits, but then again, I do too. So bite me

@Tiberius

Yes I've watched Pat's videos, and to be perfectly honest I find a lot of what he's saying right.

The video's you posted are of some guy ranting on about UKIP. So what? Because Pat supports them (didn't really know nor care) it somehow makes him a complete hypocrite? All that this guy's video's centres round are his assertions of questionable things which people have said in the party from about 20 years ago, and things in their manifesto which he is interpreting in his own bizarre fashion.
According to his logic anyone who supports a political party which has made mistakes, or is in some way interpreted to be 'bad' then they are a hypocrite? Well what about all the labor and conservative voters? Are you telling me their manifesto's and their people are free from controversy?
The whole UKIP thing is besides the point as to why I watch Pat Condell anyway. And as far as I'm concerned is besides the point of his videos. I wouldn't actually give a shit if the guy supported the BNP. If what he was saying in his videos was something I agree with, then I would agree with it regardless of the political parties he supports, or the past which the man has. His videos are very much centred around religion yes, but that's what he likes to talk about. And that's why people watch them. The fact that Pat supports UKIP is irrelevant.

How is Rayaan a moderate Muslim? What exactly is a moderate Muslim? I was under the impression that Islam is an all or nothing faith.

(July 28, 2011 at 7:00 am)Rhythm Wrote: How is Rayaan a moderate Muslim? What exactly is a moderate Muslim? I was under the impression that Islam is an all or nothing faith.

I think for most people, a moderate muslim is a muslim who keeps quiet about wanting to kill you

I wouldn't say Cauglin666 or 616 or whatever number he's using lately, it a good source for rational arguments. The guy strikes me as nuts.

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(July 28, 2011 at 5:34 am)padraic Wrote: OK,it's not complex; Condell makes sweeping generalisations about Islam, a faith with over one BILLION followers.His broad charactertisations of Islam and Muslims are not supported by evidence.

Eg We have a moderate Muslim here in Rayaan. That decent man is in fact typical of the many Muslims I knew well when living in a Muslim country .(Malaysia)

It's the same with Christianity. Most Christians I know are decent people. It's not like a religion poisons everyone it touches to the point where every Christian winds up like Fred Phelps.

In fact, I'm willing to speculate that 90% of Christians and Muslims are good people who want to believe their religion and god are also good. Many of them have either never read their scriptures or selectively interpret them to make them decent religions in their own minds.

When I rail against Christianity, I'm not thinking of pastor Joe Phelps, leader of a moderate, gay-friendly, evolution and science compatible church. I'm thinking of Fred Phelps. I'm not thinking of Frodo or TackAttack or my mother-in-law. I'm thinking of Falwell, Robertson, Ken Ham, et. al.

Why? Because these are the voices that dominate our political discourse. Even here in Louisville, it's far more likely that people on the street will recognize Albert Mohler, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary who's arch-conservative views may be known outside my home town, than his rival Joe Phelps, who I mentioned earlier.

It also has something to do with my own reading of the Bible itself. When I read the OT, it's hard to think of Joe Phelps instead of Fred Phelps. I see nothing "loving" about Yahweh at all, unless one's twisted concept of love would include what an abusive husband feels for his battered wife. When I think of moderate Christians, I think of good people who's theological views are based more on conscience, idealism and modernity than scripture.

(July 28, 2011 at 11:01 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I wouldn't say Cauglin666 or 616 or whatever number he's using lately, it a good source for rational arguments. The guy strikes me as nuts.

The guy strikes me as a fucking idiot.
I actually watched another of HIS video's which apparently humiliates someone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S42tBJc6SVI

I watched the whole thing, and I have to say I was pretty disappointed. Not with the climax, but the little snippet at the end. Say what you like about Pat Condell but he doesn't act like a four year old.

And this is a guy who apparently has the authority to call Pat Condell a bigot?

Quote:OK,it's not complex; Condell makes sweeping generalisations about Islam, a faith with over one BILLION followers.His broad charactertisations of Islam and Muslims are not supported by evidence.

I'm not sure I buy much of that, Pad. Yes, Condell, when he is talking about Danish cartoon writers, or women being lashed for being in a car with a man, or stoned for 'adultery' ( i.e. being raped ) can work himself into a lather but I can't bring myself to say that he is wrong. I really do not think it is necessary to exclude by name from those one billion followers the ones who aren't demanding death for Denmark. The picture is clear. He is speaking of the ones out in the streets demonstrating or enjoying the whipping or throwing the rocks.

However, I think he has a special place in hell for the ones who immigrate to the west and then, as soon as they get there start insisting that Europeans shitcan their cherished freedoms because these new arrivals object. Fuck them. If they don't like the West then go back to their tent in the desert. If you went into a neighbor's house and started complaining about the way they decorated or the food they served or the programs they watched on tv I imagine you would be invited to leave in short order.

Europe has a right to defend its culture.

(July 28, 2011 at 1:19 pm)Minimalist Wrote: However, I think he has a special place in hell for the ones who immigrate to the west and then, as soon as they get there start insisting that Europeans shitcan their cherished freedoms because these new arrivals object. Fuck them. If they don't like the West then go back to their tent in the desert. If you went into a neighbor's house and started complaining about the way they decorated or the food they served or the programs they watched on tv I imagine you would be invited to leave in short order.

I wholeheartedly agree, however, it is a shame that such a sentiment, while innocuous and justified on it's own, is more often than not used by other assholes as "talking points" for their own racist causes.

That said, I've never thought too highly of "multiculturalism". It doesn't mean I hate other cultures, or that I expect my culture to be with me wherever I go, but I do dislike intensely the (thankfully) short lived proclivities of any new ethnic group to segregate themselves off and try to make ethnic enclaves where they can reimplement the very place they came from.

Case in point -- The South Vietnamese who came back with us to the US were settled all across the United States. In a matter of years, however, they had mostly collected to what can best be described as ethnic enclaves and at worst, slums, to form places like "Little Saigon".

I shit you not. A bunch of those gits wanted to name one of their districts after Saigon as "Little Saigon". When one of their own leaders proposed "Saigon Business District", their own people threw a massive tiff.

This is motherfucking America assholes, not South Vietnam-lite...

I don't find credible anyone who makes spit spewing hate filled rhetoric videos attempting to slam Pat Condell for his points of view about Islam, while in the same attack attempt to assure the viewer the cause for their demeanor is they object strongly to Pat Condell's spewing hate filled rhetoric about Islam.

I adore Pat Condell and his daring. And while the reasonable viewer of his videos knows, even those who may have only just learned of his video library, that Condell is an atheist and a man who is addressing the bare bones of what inspires Islamists. The Koran.

And while there are a great many Muslims in the world and not all are violent terrorist wife beating daughter murdering trash, that there are such people calling themselves "true Muslims" while condemning other Muslims not so inclined, the violent Muslim is so due to their believing they are entitled as yet another tribe of those people of the book.

While gentle good people who integrate well with an eclectic community of individuals, while also being Muslim, are not, as is obvious in Pat Condell's address, those Muslims he's calling out and pointing out to the rest of the western world who imagine "religious tolerance" has no bounds. Not even when backward wife beating daughter murdering bigots who call themselves Muslim, expect it.

It's a pretty sorry weak platform that has arisen against Condell when everyone with an ounce of guts or one synapse that fires correctly, condemn radical ultra-right wing extremist Muslim terrorism. And then condemn one man who condemns it too.

The potential, the personal choice, in being an ultra-right wing extremist Muslim terrorist or not is the sole responsibility of the individual who either finds Islam or is already a practicing Muslim. And the source from whence that inspiration is drawn, either to be ultra-extreme or moderate, is derived from one source; the Koran.

While what is missed by those who criticize Pat Condell for his work in addressing the extremists, as one man among many others including Muslims and former Muslims, is that Imam's and Muslims can be found to declare there is no such thing as radical Islam or moderate Islam. That Islam is Islam!

What Pat Condell is addressing in his videos is that very fact. Islam is Islam. So while many folks can point at Muslims they know personally or here on the forum and say, but see? So and so isn't an extremist! Again it goes back to the original rational point. That's because they choose not to be. It's not because the Koran declares it is forbidden to be, and so they obey! They make a personal choice due to their personal moral character not to follow chapter and verse the one book that leads those who are extremists, to be so and in doing so believe they are true Muslims as opposed to those others not like them yet calling themselves Muslim.

Because again, Islam is Islam.

Putting the responsibility on Condell for pointing out that fact, is missing the point. He's talking about a political ideology. And it's guidebook for all those billions said to belong to it, whether Shia, Sunni, Wahhabis and/or Salafists, is but one book. And the conflict between even Muslims, is how that book is interpreted and practiced by the individual.
As "Apostate" and "Kafir" are terms to denote, as in any religion, there is an Us and Them paradigm .

So it's not a matter of legitimate attack being levied against Condell when it's said, he's lying that's not Islam! When headline after headline proves the world over, not to mention reading the Koran, that it is. And that is who he's talking about.
While talking to the issue itself falls under attack, which is telling and a bit of an irony. Because now, in the age of Political Correctness, some find it wrong to differentiate non-violent Muslims using the term, "Moderate Islam" and so there's a movement afoot to find a new non-offensive term to replace, "Moderate" and "Radical".
Because goodness knows, we don't want to offend Muslims. While moderate and radical attitudes and practice exist and hold potential to come to the fore, in Christianity, Judaism and any faith that a person holds dear when they imagine what they choose to define their existence, is strictly personal and in direct opposition to those others in the fold who go to the extreme thinking that faith should be considered good enough to everyone else in the world to follow too.

It's a tragic consequence that follows terrorist Muslims campaigns having a devastating effect on the mind set of the west. Now many are thinking we can't dare offend, we must be tolerant, we must dissect Islam and it's followers so as to recognize there are peaceful Muslims and not so much. We must give the benefit of the doubt that Islam, the Koran, the Hadith, which Muhammad never intended to be followed as holy writ but instead taught that the Koran was the only source for guidance in Islam, that while there are radicals in practice we have to open our society, our laws, our minds to the optimistic viewpoint that hopes our tolerance will only encourage the peaceful Muslims. The "Moderates".

Tolerance! Must be preached while the Pat Condell's of the world who state quite forthrightly that tolerance has no doctrine in Islam, must be condemned.

How tragic. How blind. Tolerance? In Islam?
Yes, that must be why we see churches and synagogues in Saudi Arabia. And why there's those same religiously inspired temples flourishing amid an eclectic societal tolerance in Mecca.








*Edit: URL errors fix. That's what I get for being in a post-n-rush on laundry day.*