I stand by my statement . If your going to be naked in a public place you have no business harping about modesty and discomfort. Your feel to those feelings but don't expect segregation policies to be based on it . And if you get to be pandered to then anyone for any "feeling " of discomfort gets to too .

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To Neo that was then this is now . He's the president not Obama . Lastly at least Obama made a policy about letting them in to much Republican saber rattling and chest pounding like when he let gays marry . Like most of Obama's policies it's Republican outrage that saw him having to sneak it through and even then to Republican rabble rousing .

(July 27, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Jesster Wrote: As far as the "seeing you naked" thing, I had to be naked around a bunch of men every day when I was in military basic training. I had to stay absolutely silent about my extreme discomfort because coming out would mean termination from the military. I'm not going to argue that point into the ground because I won't pretend that isn't an issue worth considering on the other side as well. I'm just pointing out my lack of shock at the one-way empathy here yet again.

Edit: I realize you weren't making this issue entirely one-sided Shell B. I'll add that before this becomes an issue.

In that case I assume you're referring to me.

Since apparently I need to make this perfectly clear, I only said I wouldn't blame a woman for feeling uncomfortable naked in front of men (or a trans person who still looks like a man and has male parts) because I was speaking from my own perspective as a bio woman myself. In no way does this mean I have no empathy for other people who are not bio females feeling the same way. I have said absolutely nothing to insinuate otherwise. And once again, i dont think the shower issue is legitimate reason for a trans ban in the military. Military isn't about comfort.

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(July 27, 2017 at 1:21 pm)Shell B Wrote: I think the majority of the posters here have empathy for both sides of the spectrum. The shower thing was only brought up in the eyes of a bio female. Therefore, that was what is being discussed. I can understand that nudity can be uncomfortable for people in all sorts of mixed situations. I wouldn't even be comfortable showering with another woman, whether I knew her or not. My comment about just kind of dealing with shit like that in the military stands, though. If that's too much for a person, they don't belong in the military. Clearly, it wasn't too much for you, Jesster. You stuck it out, and thank you for that. I wish you had been able to come out without any issues, but you'd have still had to shower with the guys or girls.

Edit: Not an issue, even before your edit. Just a conversation.

Well said.

Good thing I cannot be in the military anyway. I have 4F status.

How did you get a 4f???

(July 27, 2017 at 1:48 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: Good thing I cannot be in the military anyway.  I have 4F status.

For me, I'm just a coward.

(July 27, 2017 at 1:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(July 27, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Jesster Wrote: As far as the "seeing you naked" thing, I had to be naked around a bunch of men every day when I was in military basic training. I had to stay absolutely silent about my extreme discomfort because coming out would mean termination from the military. I'm not going to argue that point into the ground because I won't pretend that isn't an issue worth considering on the other side as well. I'm just pointing out my lack of shock at the one-way empathy here yet again.

Edit: I realize you weren't making this issue entirely one-sided Shell B. I'll add that before this becomes an issue.

In that case I assume you're referring to me.

Since apparently I need to make this perfectly clear, I only said I wouldn't blame a woman for feeling uncomfortable naked in front of men (or a trans person who still looks like a man and has male parts) because I was speaking from my own perspective as a bio woman myself. In no way does this mean I have no empathy for other people who are not bio females feeling the same way. I have said absolutely nothing to insinuate otherwise. And once again, i dont think the shower issue is legitimate reason for a trans ban in the military. Military isn't about comfort.

I'm referring to the situation in general. I keep seeing "think about the women!" brought up all the time, which is valid, but at the same time nobody seems to realize what trans people have already been going through for a long time now. I'm not trying to call anyone out here.

(July 27, 2017 at 1:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: How did you get a 4f???

I'm considered legally deaf; I require hearing aids to hear properly.

Oh I had no idea. I'm sorry about that.

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(July 27, 2017 at 1:52 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(July 27, 2017 at 1:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In that case I assume you're referring to me.

Since apparently I need to make this perfectly clear, I only said I wouldn't blame a woman for feeling uncomfortable naked in front of men (or a trans person who still looks like a man and has male parts) because I was speaking from my own perspective as a bio woman myself. In no way does this mean I have no empathy for other people who are not bio females feeling the same way. I have said absolutely nothing to insinuate otherwise. And once again, i dont think the shower issue is legitimate reason for a trans ban in the military. Military isn't about comfort.

I'm referring to the situation in general. I keep seeing "think about the women!" brought up all the time, which is valid, but at the same time nobody seems to realize what trans people have already been going through for a long time now. I'm not trying to call anyone out here.

Fair enough

Could not serve in the Canadian army flat feet .Thou that was a long long time ago

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Let me be also clear I neither think CL is a racist nor transphobe

War is not politically correct. Any and all decisions about military operations should be about their effectiveness. If trans doesn't reduce readiness or lethal capacity of our troops then let them serve. If they do then they should not serve. I have no opinion on what is the case. It's up to the people we must necessarily trust with protecting our nations interests.