(August 18, 2017 at 9:46 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: While the Confederacy's entire raison d'etre was the perpetuation of slavery...

Bold mine.

This seems to be the only point relevant to the argument of whether or not we should take down the Robert E. Lee statue.  Everything that follows, while interesting, seems to me, to be a red herring.

Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot. Full stop.

(August 17, 2017 at 6:42 pm)A Theist Wrote:

(August 17, 2017 at 3:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. Honestly, I personally don't have a strong opinion on these statues either way. I guess the fairest thing to do would be to let the people of the city itself decide. My response was only to say that Neo's opinion on this particular issue with historical statues doesn't make him a supremacist sympathizer, even if it is the same opinion as the supremacist themselves.

Here's something to think about. What if the Confederate statues and monuments had not been ordered for removal? What would have happened in Charlottesville? Or better yet, what wouldn't have happened in Charlottesville? To many Southerners those Confederate monuments are a connection to their ancestry and culture.

You know, if the slaves were not freed in 1865, I bet there would be no KKK, and no Nazi March in Charlottesville today either.

The root of the the evil of KKK is the freeing of slaves.

(August 18, 2017 at 10:24 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 17, 2017 at 6:42 pm)A Theist Wrote: Here's something to think about. What if the Confederate statues and monuments had not been ordered for removal? What would have happened in Charlottesville? Or better yet, what wouldn't have happened in Charlottesville? To many Southerners those Confederate monuments are a connection to their ancestry and culture.

You know, if the slaves were not freed in 1865, I bet there would be no KKK, and no Nazi March in Charlottesville today either.

The root of the the evil of KKK is the freeing of slaves.

I'd rather blame the Bible.

Being an atheist and all that . . . .

Quote:While the Confederacy's entire raison d'etre was the perpetuation of slavery, to the extent that, with a few exceptions, its constitution was a copy-pasted version of the US Constitution made more racist (to the extent that earlier this week, I found no less than three passages where they explicitly said Confederate States had to allow slavery as a condition of being part of it (not to mention all the articles of secession that explicitly state slavery was a major concern of theirs, and the quotes from members of the Confederate cabinet who outright stated it), there was a rather severe disconnect between the reasons the Confederate Government fought and why many individual soldiers fought (up to and including General Lee, who was considered a top contender to head the Union Army until Virginia seceded): many of the soldiers saw themselves as being invaded by the North over something they had no control over and felt it was their duty to defend their homeland. I mentioned before the story related by Shelby Foote where a Union soldier found a poor soldier from Virginia and asked why he was fighting, and he said poor Confederate soldier in Virginia and asking him why he was fighting and he said "I'm fighting because you're down here."

This same line of argument could be used for any evil regime

Quote:Also, the issue of Black confederates is actually pretty complicated, Throughout the war, Black people had been part of the Confederate army, but they were strictly forbidden from bearing arms for the vast majority of the war, and while the subject came from time to time, the subject of changing the law was actively suppressed until in January 1865, Robert E. Lee requested it. They finally allowed black soldiers to enlist on March 13, 1865, and even at the time, people were saying stuff to the effect that "if this works, the whole premise for our nation is fucked." I'm sure they used more delicate phrasing, but I'm having a bit of difficulty in finding the exact quote, but I'm sure someone willing to put the time (even if it's just watching the last two episodes of Ken Burns' Civil War series and waiting for the subject to come up) can find it. Less than a month later, Appomatox happened and the war was over, so they didn't have much of a chance to distinguish themselves.

Yup occasionally an evil regime will enlist the very people there oppressing


FYI i'm not going after you Rev sorry if my comment might sound like it .

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(August 18, 2017 at 10:18 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot.  Full stop.

Considering it his side acting like snow flakes I find it ironic .

(August 18, 2017 at 10:18 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot.  Full stop.

...except as satire...

1. Yup black people fought for the confederates . And Arabs , Indians and Blacks fought for the Nazi's So I guess there good guys now .

2. Again most German soldiers believed Germany was under threat. So I guess the Nazi's now get a pass

3. No one gives a fuck what party racists belonged too. And the KKK are a right wing group now so it does not matter . Stop defining everything by politics you idiot.

4. The allies bombed Dresden so I guess Germany needs to put all those third Reich statues back.

5. Learn the difference between the confederacy and the south . Spoilers there not the same. Ones an evil traitorous regime . The other are people who live in a region of the United States.

(August 18, 2017 at 10:28 am)Tizheruk Wrote: FYI i'm not going after you Rev sorry if my comment might sound like it .

I figured that. Really, my rationale is not to do a full-fledged apologia for the Confederacy, because Jah knows building up a nation for the sole purpose of perpetuating slavery isn't really defensible. What I'm trying to do is to explain that in spite of all that, there are still shades of grey to be seen in all the black, and I can understand why one might respect that grey through all the black.