Leftists Purging History or Al Queda in America

[LadyForCamus]

While the Confederacy's entire raison d'etre was the perpetuation of slavery...

Bold mine.

This seems to be the only point relevant to the argument of whether or not we should take down the Robert E. Lee statue.  Everything that follows, while interesting, seems to me, to be a red herring.

[KevinM1]

Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot. Full stop.

[Anomalocaris]

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. Honestly, I personally don't have a strong opinion on these statues either way. I guess the fairest thing to do would be to let the people of the city itself decide. My response was only to say that Neo's opinion on this particular issue with historical statues doesn't make him a supremacist sympathizer, even if it is the same opinion as the supremacist themselves.

Here's something to think about. What if the Confederate statues and monuments had not been ordered for removal? What would have happened in Charlottesville? Or better yet, what wouldn't have happened in Charlottesville? To many Southerners those Confederate monuments are a connection to their ancestry and culture.

You know, if the slaves were not freed in 1865, I bet there would be no KKK, and no Nazi March in Charlottesville today either.

The root of the the evil of KKK is the freeing of slaves.

[vorlon13]

Here's something to think about. What if the Confederate statues and monuments had not been ordered for removal? What would have happened in Charlottesville? Or better yet, what wouldn't have happened in Charlottesville? To many Southerners those Confederate monuments are a connection to their ancestry and culture.

You know, if the slaves were not freed in 1865, I bet there would be no KKK, and no Nazi March in Charlottesville today either.

The root of the the evil of KKK is the freeing of slaves.

I'd rather blame the Bible.

Being an atheist and all that . . . .

[Amarok]

While the Confederacy's entire raison d'etre was the perpetuation of slavery, to the extent that, with a few exceptions, its constitution was a copy-pasted version of the US Constitution made more racist (to the extent that earlier this week, I found no less than three passages where they explicitly said Confederate States had to allow slavery as a condition of being part of it (not to mention all the articles of secession that explicitly state slavery was a major concern of theirs, and the quotes from members of the Confederate cabinet who outright stated it), there was a rather severe disconnect between the reasons the Confederate Government fought and why many individual soldiers fought (up to and including General Lee, who was considered a top contender to head the Union Army until Virginia seceded): many of the soldiers saw themselves as being invaded by the North over something they had no control over and felt it was their duty to defend their homeland. I mentioned before the story related by Shelby Foote where a Union soldier found a poor soldier from Virginia and asked why he was fighting, and he said poor Confederate soldier in Virginia and asking him why he was fighting and he said "I'm fighting because you're down here."

This same line of argument could be used for any evil regime

Also, the issue of Black confederates is actually pretty complicated, Throughout the war, Black people had been part of the Confederate army, but they were strictly forbidden from bearing arms for the vast majority of the war, and while the subject came from time to time, the subject of changing the law was actively suppressed until in January 1865, Robert E. Lee requested it. They finally allowed black soldiers to enlist on March 13, 1865, and even at the time, people were saying stuff to the effect that "if this works, the whole premise for our nation is fucked." I'm sure they used more delicate phrasing, but I'm having a bit of difficulty in finding the exact quote, but I'm sure someone willing to put the time (even if it's just watching the last two episodes of Ken Burns' Civil War series and waiting for the subject to come up) can find it. Less than a month later, Appomatox happened and the war was over, so they didn't have much of a chance to distinguish themselves.

Yup occasionally an evil regime will enlist the very people there oppressing


FYI i'm not going after you Rev sorry if my comment might sound like it .

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Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot.  Full stop.

Considering it his side acting like snow flakes I find it ironic .

[Thumpalumpacus]

You can take what you know from your google education and leftwing indoctrination about Southern culture and ancestory and shove it all up your narrow minded snowflake ass.

Hey, asshole, you're talking to a white Southerner, born in Texas of Texans. I'm not looking for any safe spot. I want our country to stop treating people like my brother-in-law, nieces, and nephew as second-class citizens. Part of that means not honoring the folks who fought to keep their ancestors in bondage.

Look, I know you're about as stupid as the day is long, but I'm surprised I have to spell out this point -- it's fairly obvious, I'd think. I guess some folk just aren't suitably equipped for thinking. Sorry to see you're one of them.

If racism and slavery and white red necks is all you think Southern culture is, then you are one petty and bigoted prick.

Well, you can rest your upset thoughts, then, because I know better than to ascribe to such a stupid caricature; after all, I grew up here, in part, and have lived here easily half my life.

Many of their ancestors who served in the Confederate army weren't slave owners.

Of course not, you dolt. That's another thing I didn't say.

It's as if you'd rather argue with someone else. If you want to address my points, address my points, not your fevered imaginings. Fuckin' idiot.

They were southerners who merely fought for the sole purpose of defending their states and their homes. Here's some more for your alligator mouth vs your jaybird ass to think about: Something that goes totally unmentioned by the identity politics of the left is that there were also free blacks, in uniform, who served in the Confederate army.

Give me numbers from a reputable source. I want to see how many blacks flocked to the colors to defend the institution of slavery.

If you want to harp on Southern racism, as someone else previously posted, there was also racism in the Northern army where white soldiers threatened to desert if they had to serve alongside with blacks.

No shit, Sherlock? Wow, aren't you the educated one! Of course I know this.

So should we start tearing down statues and monuments of Ulysses Grant and William Sherman, now? After that, let's move on to tearing down statues dedicated to Theodore Roosevelt because similar events happened under his command during the Spanish-American War.

The difference is that the culmination of the life's work of all these men was not the defense of slavery. Also, you can let me know when they've committed treason by taking up arms against their nation.

You're so busy lapping up the talking-points you've been spoon-fed that you're not bothering to think things through at all. I guess I shouldn't blame you, given the paucity of equipment you have to devote to the task of thinking, but even so, stupid as you are, you need to start thinking for yourself.

From there, let's move on to taking down statues dedicated to well known democrats from history, because, not only were some of them Klan members, but also that the Klan has its roots in the democrat party. So where do you want to stop in tearing down historical monuments that offend you?

I don't care about political affiliation. Why should that matter at all?

This issue is about human beings, not your political ends.

Here's a thought for your self proclaimed libertarian views, since there were free blacks who served in the Confederate army, instead of tearing down monuments of Lee and Jackson and white Confederate soldiers, why not erect statues and monuments dedicated to the black Confederate soldiers along side the existing white Confederate statues and monuments?

Here's a thought: let's put those statues in museums rather than parks. Let's put them in museums where the educational material can explain everything these guys did, and what, exactly , they were fighting for. And it wasn't about states' rights:

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

[...]

In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

No Confederate state had the right to outlaw slavery. If the war was about states' rights, why didn't the rebels first overthrow their own government for abrogating those rights in these clauses? That's right! Move to the head of the class. This war was fought because the Confederate states seceded. Why did they secede? Because they saw the writing on the wall and knew that they would eventually be outvoted in Congress, and that at that time slavery would be outlawed. They seceded because that was the only way they could preserve slavery in the face of the nation's westward expansion and the Missouri Compromise.

You can dance around that fact with your appeals to heritage, but that is the brute fact. The fact that you value statues honoring those who fought to defend slavery more than you value the feelings of the descendants of slaves says a lot about you, kid ... and none of it is good.

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Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot.  Full stop.

I took it as a racial slur.

[Jackalope]

Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot.  Full stop.

...except as satire...

[LadyForCamus]

You can take what you know from your google education and leftwing indoctrination about Southern culture and ancestory and shove it all up your narrow minded snowflake ass.

Hey, asshole, you're talking to a white Southerner, born in Texas of Texans. I'm not looking for any safe spot. I want our country to stop treating people like my brother-in-law, nieces, and nephew as second-class citizens. Part of that means not honoring the folks who fought to keep their ancestors in bondage.

Look, I know you're about as stupid as the day is long, but I'm surprised I have to spell out this point -- it's fairly obvious, I'd think. I guess some folk just aren't suitably equipped for thinking. Sorry to see you're one of them.

If racism and slavery and white red necks is all you think Southern culture is, then you are one petty and bigoted prick.

Well, you can rest your upset thoughts, then, because I know better than to ascribe to such a stupid caricature; after all, I grew up here, in part, and have lived here easily half my life.

Many of their ancestors who served in the Confederate army weren't slave owners.

Of course not, you dolt. That's another thing I didn't say.

It's as if you'd rather argue with someone else. If you want to address my points, address my points, not your fevered imaginings. Fuckin' idiot.

They were southerners who merely fought for the sole purpose of defending their states and their homes. Here's some more for your alligator mouth vs your jaybird ass to think about: Something that goes totally unmentioned by the identity politics of the left is that there were also free blacks, in uniform, who served in the Confederate army.

Give me numbers from a reputable source. I want to see how many blacks flocked to the colors to defend the institution of slavery.

If you want to harp on Southern racism, as someone else previously posted, there was also racism in the Northern army where white soldiers threatened to desert if they had to serve alongside with blacks.

No shit, Sherlock? Wow, aren't you the educated one! Of course I know this.

So should we start tearing down statues and monuments of Ulysses Grant and William Sherman, now? After that, let's move on to tearing down statues dedicated to Theodore Roosevelt because similar events happened under his command during the Spanish-American War.

The difference is that the culmination of the life's work of all these men was not the defense of slavery. Also, you can let me know when they've committed treason by taking up arms against their nation.

You're so busy lapping up the talking-points you've been spoon-fed that you're not bothering to think things through at all. I guess I shouldn't blame you, given the paucity of equipment you have to devote to the task of thinking, but even so, stupid as you are, you need to start thinking for yourself.

From there, let's move on to taking down statues dedicated to well known democrats from history, because, not only were some of them Klan members, but also that the Klan has its roots in the democrat party. So where do you want to stop in tearing down historical monuments that offend you?

I don't care about political affiliation. Why should that matter at all?

This issue is about human beings, not your political ends.

Here's a thought for your self proclaimed libertarian views, since there were free blacks who served in the Confederate army, instead of tearing down monuments of Lee and Jackson and white Confederate soldiers, why not erect statues and monuments dedicated to the black Confederate soldiers along side the existing white Confederate statues and monuments?

Here's a thought: let's put those statues in museums rather than parks. Let's put them in museums where the educational material can explain everything these guys did, and what, exactly , they were fighting for. And it wasn't about states' rights:

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

[...]

In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

No Confederate state had the right to outlaw slavery. If the war was about states' rights, why didn't the rebels first overthrow their own government for abrogating those rights in these clauses?  That's right! Move to the head of the class. This war was fought because the Confederate states seceded. Why did they secede? Because they saw the writing on the wall and knew that they would eventually be outvoted in Congress, and that at that time slavery would be outlawed. They seceded because that was the only way they could preserve slavery in the face of the nation's westward expansion and the Missouri Compromise.

You can dance around that fact with your appeals to heritage, but that is the brute fact. The fact that you value statues honoring those who fought to defend slavery more than you value the feelings of the descendants of slaves says a lot about you, kid ... and none of it is good.

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Anyone who says 'snowflake' seriously is an idiot.  Full stop.

I took it as a racial slur.  

Bold mine.

This is the kicker for me: these people, who are supposedly so offended by the notion of the  statues coming down...are they really that emotionally invested in their standing?  Or, is it more about not giving the other side the satisfaction?  Know your place blackies!  Amah right, A Theist? 😉

[Amarok]

1. Yup black people fought for the confederates . And Arabs , Indians and Blacks fought for the Nazi's So I guess there good guys now .

2. Again most German soldiers believed Germany was under threat. So I guess the Nazi's now get a pass

3. No one gives a fuck what party racists belonged too. And the KKK are a right wing group now so it does not matter . Stop defining everything by politics you idiot.

4. The allies bombed Dresden so I guess Germany needs to put all those third Reich statues back.

5. Learn the difference between the confederacy and the south . Spoilers there not the same. Ones an evil traitorous regime . The other are people who live in a region of the United States.

[Rev. Rye]

FYI i'm not going after you Rev sorry if my comment might sound like it .

I figured that. Really, my rationale is not to do a full-fledged apologia for the Confederacy, because Jah knows building up a nation for the sole purpose of perpetuating slavery isn't really defensible. What I'm trying to do is to explain that in spite of all that, there are still shades of grey to be seen in all the black, and I can understand why one might respect that grey through all the black.