In a liberal social geography class I took last year at uni, two principles about gender were universally embraced:

A) Gender is a societally constructed concept. The gender roles we take are artificial constraints, and we should not limit people by them.
B) Transgender people were born in the wrong one and have every right to change genders.

I see these views as very contradictory. If we assume A to be true, the different roles and traits of one gender are being arbitrarily grouped together, and as a society we should not compel people to constrain themselves to the characteristics of one gender. For example, instead of saying women should be the ones to do sewing and cooking, we should say that gender should not be what determines who does sewing and cooking.

If we assume B to be ideal, we're saying that someone should be able to choose which grouping of characteristics belonging to one gender they would rather follow. This attitude implies that there is a reason to change gender: that there is something fundamentally different between genders that is innate to a person.

I think both of these are reasonable propositions. But I don't see them as reconcilable. A states that gender characteristics are not innate, while B implies that they are. A suggests that we should not treat people differently based on their gender, while B assumes that we do. B almost seems to be an affront to A. I know this site is generally quite liberal, so I was wondering if anyone here can explain to me the rationale for holding these views simultaneously.

I think you're confusing gender with gender role. It's not the same thing. Transexuals do not reject the gender roles that come with whatever anatomy they're born with, but rather they identify with a different gender.

A transwoman may love baking and sewing or she may love playing sports and being the sole breadwinner. Those are socially imposed gender roles that are arbitrary. Identifying as a certain gender has nothing to do with identifying with arbitrary gender roles.

(August 21, 2017 at 11:16 pm)Losty Wrote: I think you're confusing gender with gender role. It's not the same thing. Transexuals do not reject the gender roles that come with whatever anatomy they're born with, but rather they identify with a different gender.

A transwoman may love baking and sewing or she may love playing sports and being the sole breadwinner. Those are socially imposed gender roles that are arbitrary. Identifying as a certain gender has nothing to do with identifying with arbitrary gender roles.

What is there to gender other than these socially defined roles and stereotypical characteristics?

Gender is the state of being male or female by most definitions. Not the state of washing dishes and rearing children.

(August 21, 2017 at 11:07 pm)shadow Wrote: A) Gender is a societally constructed concept. The gender roles we take are artificial constraints, and we should not limit people by them.
B) Transgender people were born in the wrong one and have every right to change genders.

Quote:A states that gender characteristics are not innate, while B implies that they are.

No, b doesn't.  There's no point in correcting you anywhere else, a correction here suffices, agreed?  B simply accepts that such constructs exist - it does not state that they are innate or opine upon the virtue of such constructs in and of themselves.

I do have to ask, though, what makes this "the liberal view"? It's the sociological view, the psychological view, it's an ethicists view........what makes it "the liberal view"?

(August 21, 2017 at 11:37 pm)Losty Wrote: Gender is the state of being male or female by most definitions. Not the state of washing dishes and rearing children.

But what's fundamentally the difference between being male and female? It's got to be based on something. If you try to define it, the definitions do seem rather arbitrary or stereotypical.

Reach down and grab your business, that's the fundamental difference between male and female - but it won't tell you much about gender roles. If you happen to grab peen, when you reach down, it won't tell you that you personally feel masculine, like sports, hate wearing dresses, and are attracted to vagina.

(August 22, 2017 at 12:17 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(August 21, 2017 at 11:07 pm)shadow Wrote: A) Gender is a societally constructed concept. The gender roles we take are artificial constraints, and we should not limit people by them.
B) Transgender people were born in the wrong one and have every right to change genders.

Quote:A states that gender characteristics are not innate, while B implies that they are.

No, b doesn't.  There's no point in correcting you anywhere else, a correction here suffices, agreed?  B simply accepts that such constructs exist - it does not state that they are innate or opine upon the virtue of such constructs in and of themselves.

I'm talking more about one's ideals. If someone thinks that there should be no difference between how we treat men and women, it is at the very least logically inconsistent for them to think that it should matter whether you are one or the other. I could see it as a means to deal with the fact that the world isn't yet what one might desire it to be, but it is still contradictory reasoning in that case.

To provide an analogy: it's like if I thought religions are all BS, but decided to convert from being a Muslim to a Christian. Why not just be an atheist, or distance myself from religion as much as possible if my society doesn't allow me to completely leave it? Why emphasize the change?

Quote:I do have to ask, though, what makes this "the liberal view"?  It's the sociological view, the psychological view, it's an ethicists view........what makes it "the liberal view"?

Just my experience. I absolutely agree it's not like all liberals will think this or that they are the only ones, just that there are many liberal people who hold this view, who I would otherwise agree with on many issues.

(August 22, 2017 at 12:35 am)shadow Wrote:

(August 22, 2017 at 12:17 am)Khemikal Wrote: No, b doesn't.  There's no point in correcting you anywhere else, a correction here suffices, agreed?  B simply accepts that such constructs exist - it does not state that they are innate or opine upon the virtue of such constructs in and of themselves.

I'm talking more about one's ideals. If someone thinks that there should be no difference between how we treat men and women, it is at the very least logically inconsistent for them to think that it should matter whether you are one or the other. I could see it as a means to deal with the fact that the world isn't yet what one might desire it to be, but it is still contradictory reasoning in that case.

-and I'm reminding you that just because someone or someones - plural, shouldn't, doesn't mean that they don't.  That this is not a contradiction between the two statements you chose to reference.  

Quote:To provide an analogy: it's like if I thought religions are all BS, but decided to convert from being a Muslim to a Christian. Why not just be an atheist, or distance myself from religion as much as possible if my society doesn't allow me to completely leave it? Why emphasize the change?

A poor analogy, even statement A doesn't call them bullshit, - it calls them arbitrary - and they are, as evidenced by vast disparity between competing notions of gender between cultures as they refer to their respective sexes. Their being arbitrary doesn;t change the fact that they exist, and that people within those frameworks find them both compelling..and, in some cases, disphoric.

Quote:Just my experience. I absolutely agree it's not like all liberals will think this or that they are the only ones, just that there are many liberal people who hold this view, who I would otherwise agree with on many issues.

Why do you think liberals hold that view?  Why do you think it's the view of sociology, psychology, and ethics?  I take it by "otherwise" you mean you disagree here, but are you disagreeing with anything that's actually being said?

Even more simply - if someone wants to be a girl or be called a girl or be treated like a girl..whats the fucking problem?

(August 22, 2017 at 12:31 am)Khemikal Wrote: Reach down and grab your business, that's the fundamental difference between male and female - but it won't tell you much about gender roles.  If you happen to grab peen, when you reach down, it won't tell you that you personally feel masculine, like sports, hate wearing dresses, and are attracted to vagina.

So your saying being transgender is 100% anatomical? That has never been my understanding. For example, transgender women might wear makeup. That doesn't have much to do with anatomy. There's clearly something they're changing besides their physical sex.