i'm wondering if you can help me im an atheist but am struggling to answer a question i often propose to myself it goes something like this.....

If you see an ant crawling across the ground, to the ant, you are his god that could wipe him out at time, he has no intelligence of you or that you exist, for the ant he is as intelligent as he is going to get, and can't even comprehend we exist.

So could we be in the same position as the ant? as far as we can see humans right now are as intelligent as we can get, but growing up we do not have the intelligence capacity to comprehend our surrounding. As children, take a 1 year old or any age under 3-4 we are also at that point, (The same as the ant) as intelligent at THAT time as we are going to get and cannot comprehend to world around us intelligently.

So just the same as the ant, adults at our height point of intelligence, to the toddler we are the Gods. What if we, right NOW are at this point in time, at our current level of intelligence are in the same position as the Ant and Toddler? Could there be an unknown Force, Entity, that just the same as we are unknown to the ant and the toddler to his or her world, that is looking at us as we look at the ant?

As its happening right now to the ant and toddler, this is proof it can, and is happening, It doesn't seem that extraordinary somthing is looknig at us in the same way,

Would love to hear what you think,

Thanks

Quick answer: yes, there could be such an entity and yes we could be as beneath it as an ant is to us. There might be any number of things beyond our understanding and imagination. But life is short; don't waste time cowering in fear of what might be. Find out if there really are such things, if you like. But pragmatically, withhold believing in them until there's reason to do so. Certainly don't prostrate yourself in worship of them - even if they exist, worship has to be earned.

Quote: Could there be an unknown Force, Entity, that just the same as we are unknown to the ant and the toddler to his or her world, that is looking at us as we look at the ant?

Yes, but there is no evidence for it.  Therefore, it does not matter.

You pose this as a problem of relative intelligence. I'm not sure that's the right way to think about this.

True, an ant doesn't seem able to 'conceive' of us, but an ant can surely sense us in the right circumstances (their olfactory development is remarkable). This is the opposite of our relationship to 'gods'. In that case, we have nothing but concepts and certain emotional experiences that some take as pointing in the direction of those concepts. What we lack are direct, sensible experiences of these gods.

(August 24, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Quick answer: yes, there could be such an entity and yes we could be as beneath it as an ant is to us. There might be any number of things beyond our understanding and imagination. But life is short; don't waste time cowering in fear of what might be. Find out if there really are such things, if you like. But pragmatically, withhold believing in them until there's reason to do so. Certainly don't prostrate yourself in worship of them - even if they exist, worship has to be earned.

Oh im not cowering in fear of what might be, quit the oposite, and worship doesn't even come in to the equation, im happy with my current beliefs in the logical world and science, its just this makes my mind race.

Then it really shouldn't. There's plenty of things right here on this planet that can do things I never will, or are far bigger than I am. I don't bother them, they don't bother me. And we know they exist. Something that might exist but for which we have no evidence? Yeah, I don't think it'll affect me a whole lot. It's like being intimidated by the Death Star.

(August 24, 2017 at 12:11 pm)budsa11 Wrote: i'm wondering if you can help me im an atheist but am struggling to answer a question i often propose to myself it goes something like this.....

If you see an ant crawling across the ground, to the ant, you are his god that could wipe him out at time, he has no intelligence of you or that you exist, for the ant he is as intelligent as he is going to get, and can't even comprehend we exist.

So could we be in the same position as the ant? as far as we can see humans right now are as intelligent as we can get, but growing up we do not have the intelligence capacity to comprehend our surrounding. As children, take a 1 year old or any age under 3-4 we are also at that point, (The same as the ant) as intelligent at THAT time as we are going to get and cannot comprehend to world around us intelligently.

So just the same as the ant, adults at our height point of intelligence, to the toddler we are the Gods. What if we, right NOW are at this point in time, at our current level of intelligence are in the same position as the Ant and Toddler? Could there be an unknown Force, Entity, that just the same as we are unknown to the ant and the toddler to his or her world, that is looking at us as we look at the ant?

As its happening right now to the ant and toddler, this is proof it can, and is happening, It doesn't seem that extraordinary somthing is looknig at us in the same way,

Would love to hear what you think,

Thanks

Excellent question.  The answer is it makes no difference whatsoever.  In the end we only can understand what we can and abandoning our self determination to some hypothetical uber-being is not an option.

(August 24, 2017 at 12:25 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: You pose this as a problem of relative intelligence. I'm not sure that's the right way to think about this.

True, an ant doesn't seem able to 'conceive' of us, but an ant can surely sense us in the right circumstances (their olfactory development is remarkable). This is the opposite of our relationship to 'gods'. In that case, we have nothing but concepts and certain emotional experiences that some take as pointing in the direction of those concepts. What we lack are direct, sensible experiences of these gods.

I guess i used the ant as lack of a better analogy, you could replace the ant with viruses or germs as they are alive.

when i pose this question to people the first response i get is, "You think too much" this isn't good enough for me. Idon't think you can ever think to much.

(August 24, 2017 at 12:11 pm)budsa11 Wrote: i'm wondering if you can help me im an atheist but am struggling to answer a question i often propose to myself it goes something like this.....

If you see an ant crawling across the ground, to the ant, you are his god that could wipe him out at time, he has no intelligence of you or that you exist, for the ant he is as intelligent as he is going to get, and can't even comprehend we exist.

So could we be in the same position as the ant? as far as we can see humans right now are as intelligent as we can get, but growing up we do not have the intelligence capacity to comprehend our surrounding. As children, take a 1 year old or any age under 3-4 we are also at that point, (The same as the ant) as intelligent at THAT time as we are going to get and cannot comprehend to world around us intelligently.

So just the same as the ant, adults at our height point of intelligence, to the toddler we are the Gods. What if we, right NOW are at this point in time, at our current level of intelligence are in the same position as the Ant and Toddler? Could there be an unknown Force, Entity, that just the same as we are unknown to the ant and the toddler to his or her world, that is looking at us as we look at the ant?

As its happening right now to the ant and toddler, this is proof it can, and is happening, It doesn't seem that extraordinary somthing is looknig at us in the same way,

Would love to hear what you think,

Thanks

To be blunt NO.

There does not have to be a gap answer postulating a giant super cognition as providing an answer as to why we are here and even Hawking has said as much, "A God is not required."

I am not even a fan of the si fi version when people claim all this is a "giant simulation". That is the same woo bullshit mistake as when theist treat the word "theory" as a mere guess. That is not what scientists mean by "simulation".

Now to understand where god claims and super natural claims are REALLY coming from there are three important books I highly recommend to understand what is really going on.

1. The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins

2. God The Failed Hypothesis, Victor Stenger

3. The New Atheism, Victor Stenger

To make it short, our species imagination reflecting our own attributes and imagination is what is really going on.

I do not see any super cognition or even a "simulation" giving one rats ass about our species, knowing that other life existed and our 4 billion year old planet has had 5 mass extinctions. I do not see any cosmic sky hero or invisible Bill Gates in a 13.8 billion year old universe with an estimated 200 billion galaxies in it giving one shit about what happens to us as a species.

No, that does not make me fatalistic or pessimistic. It just means I don't assign any woo or superstition or deity to any of this. It makes much more sense to me to accept that humans make it up because they want it to be true and have a hard time facing that we are merely a temporary blip riding in a giant weather pattern. 

I still find good and life valuing the finite time I have. I have no desire to want to blindly swallow any form of a fictional forever that does not exist. Even the universe itself will run out of energy known as "heat death".

My advice is to don't worry about what we don't currently know by attempting to plop in gap answers. Just do the best you can now, enjoy the ride and try not to hurt others. If you can accept you had no pre life then there is no need for a forever either after you die.

Sure there is lots science has yet to figure out, but that does not mean we have to cling to any and all naked assertions to falsely hedge our bets to fill in the gap.

The only "God" I have is my cat. That is one cute fur ball that you cannot ignore at 4:30 5am when the little booger wakes you up because he wants to eat. Best living fractal of temporary atoms anyone could ask for.

(August 24, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Quick answer: yes, there could be such an entity and yes we could be as beneath it as an ant is to us. There might be any number of things beyond our understanding and imagination. But life is short; don't waste time cowering in fear of what might be. Find out if there really are such things, if you like. But pragmatically, withhold believing in them until there's reason to do so. Certainly don't prostrate yourself in worship of them - even if they exist, worship has to be earned.

^This^

For that matter each uber-being above us could each have an uber-being above it ad infinitum.  The fact that an ant defines us as the uber-most, absolute god makes no difference to whether or not there are any.  

In a world of hypothetical uber-beings, no one can say which is the omega.