Ok, to qualify what I mean by "spontaneous," I did not mean to limit it to a a beginning at a particular point in time. So, to recast it, if something always existed, why not a non-sentient multiverse instead of a god. If something came into existence at a time certain without having been created, why not the universe instead of god.

Go.

PS: Where is our noob Troll that started this thread?

(May 5, 2009 at 2:58 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Multiverses fit theism very nicely thankyou

'sfunny ... I don't recall either string theory or the multiverses being mentioned in the bible. Care to expand on that claim a little?

Kyu

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(May 5, 2009 at 5:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You seem to have misunderstood my point. My point is that there is no evidence, that the overwhelming evidence leads one to rationally conclude that those references could be non factual. That would support my argument.

Oh god, here we go again ... the lack of evidence is actually a plus point in believing in your god!!!!!

Do you know how ridiculous an idea that is?

Kyu

Here's all about the string theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

AS Kyu said if multiverses would fit theism, why haven't thesit figured such thing out allready? It's not mentioned in the bible, which is not suprising really.

Also religion haven't made any contrubution to understand the universe at all. All theists are doing is trying to fit sceintific theories with their religion. If they are not trying to claim that the scientific evidence is wrong if they don't think it's suits them.

(May 5, 2009 at 5:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You seem to have misunderstood my point. My point is that there is no evidence, that the overwhelming evidence leads one to rationally conclude that those references could be non factual. That would support my argument.

Okay frodo we agree that there is no evidence,and that the references I mentioned could be non factual.I see this as a contradiction since I was speaking about the historicity of Christ in my last post.If the historicity of Christ could be non factual due to the lack of evidence then you are basically worshipping a mythological personage.That is sort of like taking advice from the great Confucius or Buddah himself.If you state that the bible is full of moral teachings and most of those things taught there are meant to be taken spiritually,then please tell me where do you get your concept of spirit?Since it is also a given that the existence of a spirit is like god himself another thing that cannot be defined or scientifically discerned.

(May 6, 2009 at 10:00 am)chatpilot Wrote: Okay frodo we agree that there is no evidence,and that the references I mentioned could be non factual.I see this as a contradiction since I was speaking about the historicity of Christ in my last post.If the historicity of Christ could be non factual due to the lack of evidence then you are basically worshipping a mythological personage.That is sort of like taking advice from the great Confucius or Buddah himself.If you state that the bible is full of moral teachings and most of those things taught there are meant to be taken spiritually,then please tell me where do you get your concept of spirit?Since it is also a given that the existence of a spirit is like god himself another thing that cannot be defined or scientifically discerned.

The first books of the Bible are seen as poetry by some. Not factual, and I agree with them. Other parts of the Bible are different. There are many different styles and reasons for those books and they don't all fall into one category by any stretch of the imagination. Read it intelligently and with reference to surrounding facts and it makes sense.

I don't see the historicity of Christ as purely myth. My assertion is that it (the Bible) could be entirely myth and that wouldn't matter to what it's really about, which is spiritual truth. This truth has direct personal influence and interaction with my life. It's not just an idea.

I get my concept of the spirit from the Bible, since I accept the Bible as truth (this wasn't always so). Man is part spirit and that spirit is like God. People stuff this space with all kinds of shit. In spiritual terms, this is spiritual ill health. In simple practical terms, the Bible provides guidelines to be healthy. Appreciating life in every moment etc etc, is what it's all about.

Fair enough the concept is well worn and prolifically abused. It's so easy to put it down with misinformation which is what anti theists seem to want to spend their lives doing. What we have isspiritual anarchy. It's not so wise to throw out such a wealth of knowledge.

If you only look at spirituality as a scientist then you're never going to get it. Spirituality doesn't concern science.

"If you only look at spirituality as a scientist then you're never going to get it. Spirituality doesn't concern science. "

In my experience when I was a believer,spirituality is sensual it is something you feel and interpret as divine.But my argument now is that those feelings we call divine or the touch of the holy spirit are nothing more than psycho-emotional reactions to your own personal convictions based on what you have been indoctrinated yourself to believe in.The deeper your conviction and commitment to those beliefs the stronger the feelings of the divine.

I base none of my faith on feelings. Feelings have to be interpreted very carefully and should never, in my opinion, have anything to do with the basis of anyone's beliefs. The grounding of your belief should lie solely in the rational assumptions that you make supporting your belief. If you never rationally accepted the position and only ever got a warm feeling that you were right then I'd say your faith is baseless and destined to fail. Some people say to me that it's possible to have faith without thinking about it. To me that's the most non sensical explanation I can think of for believing. The Bible urges you to think, test and reason about your faith.

I agree with you there frodo regarding thinking and reasoning about your faith,but I find that impossible to do.My reason for this is that it's hard to make rational something so irrational as religion.Its teachings are so disjointed and self contradictory that it is not easily discernible.Actually, faith and reason dont even belong in the same sentence since they are total opposites of one another.According to encarta the defintion of reason from a philosophical point of view is :
intellect as basis for knowledge: the ability to think logically regarded as a basis for knowledge, as distinct from experience or emotions

The bible defines faith in Hebrews 11:1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Based on this definition faith itself is an emotion its actually hoping without proof.

The bible does tell you to
2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But this is only a reference to studying the scriptures.Worldly knowledge such as philosophy and the sciences are actually condemned as foolish by the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Thinking about what you said about your own Christian experience chatpilot and you saying it was entirely an emotional response and not rational, made me think of the story of the seed that fell on stony ground.

Hebrews 11:1 doesn't mention emotion. You do. This and your following quotes precisely back up the argument that faith is zero to do with science. The Jews worked this out long ago. It's foolish to look at the word of God with science, it's saying. Yes foolishness when trying to understand God.

Have you seen much of Tim Keller?

It doesn't have to mention emotion hope is an emotion you dont need the bible or god to know that.It's like saying the bible does not have the word trinity in it,but generally there is a trinity involved in the godhead of Father,Son,Holy Spirit.