(August 2, 2011 at 12:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: Hmn lets see, a "serpent" that can move around without crawling on it's belly (it hasn't yet been cursed by god)...Now what do we call walking/flying "serpents", oh, that's right, dragons.

Nahash (Hebrew) [from nahash to whisper, hiss, prognosticate, practice divination] Serpent; a constellation -- the serpent or dragon in the northern quarter of the heavens (We call this Draco)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahash

I'll even suggest to you where they may have gotten such an idea in the first place (not that they need an origin for a dragon story, find me a culture without dragons):

http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology...arduk.html
perhaps even
http://www.northernway.org/hgoddess.html
(I find it very amusing to view the narrative in this light, of a Goddess cult luring away men from god, but hey, in the end I don't have a say in what this narrative actually means)

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" Rev 12:9

Even if you don't belong to a tradition that believes the serpent of Genesis is the devil he is still referred to as nahash, and dragon, in the same breath. In fact there are many different words one can find in the bible that mean serpent, dragon, monster, sea creature...and a whole host of other things, all at the same time. Nahash may actually be used as an adjective in some of these cases, and not a noun as the text seems to imply, rendering it's meaning to "hissing thing". We are again left with a walking, talking, sentient creature, that apparently has a habit of hissing (or at least whispering). Scripture does call it a serpent outright however, and in this case they clearly meant it as a noun. A walking, talking, sapient...serpent. A dragon. Just because your dragons have wings, and knights fight them out of their caves for hordes of treasure, doesn't mean everyone sees (or in this case saw) dragons in such a way. But hey, wtf do I know right buddy?

(What the hell is the deal here anyway, you can believe in everything that the text says, except when it says dragon? Is that where it becomes too fanciful for you? Well we all draw the line somewhere don't we?)

The Hebrew word used in Genesis is nachash and means, hissing sound of a serpent, it is not used in the garden story as a physical description. So to say that the serpent had legs or wings is not important, what is important is that the serpent was made to crawl on it's belly for the rest of it's days, it in no way describes where snakes come from, read the verse closely and you will see that the curse was applied to this one serpent only.
In Rev. 12:9 the word in greek for dragon is drakon which means fabulous kind of serpent which does not mean it can fly, breath fire or anything else, this has to do with the cunning and slyness of Lucifer. The stories are not to fanciful, I believe what the scriptures say when the correct definition is applied to the words and what the context of the verses is.

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(August 3, 2011 at 1:41 am)Rhythm Wrote: If I recall correctly, your version of hell is interactive and partially self imposed. Leading to all manner of perverted sadist/masochist fantasies on your part. Just imagine all the writhing sinful souls.

It's totally self imposed, you make the choice not God, He gives you what you ask for. Why is it you can not see that. That is a thought not a question. As for the punishment one will torment themselves with a hatred for God that goes beyond anything you can imagine.

(August 2, 2011 at 7:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: At what point then may the immaterial have an effect on the material?

Outside of God, our actions inspired by it.

(August 2, 2011 at 7:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "Purpose is a result, end, mean, aim, or goal of an action intentionally undertaken"

You have proof that this is an intentional undertaking? This is clearly the meaning of purpose which you are advocating. Or have I misread you, and you don't believe this existence to be intentional, and instead prefer some other meaning of purpose?

Sorry I can't find that quote on the page. Which are you talking about.. divine or personal intention??

(August 3, 2011 at 2:22 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(August 2, 2011 at 6:54 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Religion should be about the non material in my mind, but some people like to mix it up.

Then perhaps religion should stop making claims about the material world. Perhaps the religious should just abandon all of the arguments that hinge upon the material. Like Genesis, Miracles, Vicarious Salvation, Damnation, and Armageddon (off the top of my head), oh that's right, if they did that they wouldn't actually have any sort of traditional christianity whatsoever. I guess they could still call themselves christian though, couldn't they Frodo.

Accurately reading the text, without making it what you want it to mean, Genesis isn't about material creation. None of those things are of interest to science and the material world view. And Christianity hinges on them as metaphysical events. Ignoring the metaphysical is of no interest to Christians, nor the vast majority of other religious observances.

(August 3, 2011 at 2:00 am)Cinjin Wrote:

(August 3, 2011 at 1:36 am)Godschild Wrote:

(August 2, 2011 at 1:15 am)Cinjin Wrote:

(August 1, 2011 at 11:36 pm)Godschild Wrote: This is a story of love as a parent loves a child.

Nope, can't have it both ways. I would not kick my child out of my house for what is essentially a simple lie. Your god loved himself, and he has proven that throughout your silly bible. You simply choose not to see it.

Your god BURNS PEOPLE who don't love him. How do you not see this?!? Your god loves himself far more than he could EVER love you. Sheep.

God removed the imperfect from the perfect, He gave them the whole world as a home. God did not allow them to stay in the garden to keep them from the tree of life, He did not want them to live forever in their sin in fleshly bodies, also they had to pay the price of sin spiritual and physical death, if they had eaten from the tree of life they would have lived forever. Also, I do not think that hell for humans is a firey place, so your burn forever argument doesn't work for what I believe. God loves me more than you can ever know, that is unless you become a believer.

Nope. That's nearly the exact same thing you were saying before. You've added nothing. It does not give justification to your god on any level. You are talking in circles. It's the tired old argument, "God HAD to do it - cause he's god" - and - "god loves me ... cause I said so"

Nope. Anyone else on earth who treated you the way god treated Adam and Eve (and all of mankind for that matter) would not be someone you would EVER consider to love you. You are blind and as I said before, you see what you want to see. Your god has no idea what love is. But don't be too sad about this. He's not real, and you have nothing to worry about.

My God has a great love for me, I see it in my life, experience it every day. He loves you too Cinjin whether you like it or not, your thoughts and disbelief about God changes nothing about his nature and it is His nature to love all of mankind.
As far as adding nothing new don't need to when it's the truth, truth can and does stand on it's own.

(August 3, 2011 at 2:58 am)Godschild Wrote: It's totally self imposed, you make the choice not God, He gives you what you ask for. Why is it you can not see that. That is a thought not a question. As for the punishment one will torment themselves with a hatred for God that goes beyond anything you can imagine.

Yet another outright lie. The Bible clearly says that the unrighteous are CAST into the lake of fire. Being cast is NOT self imposed - someone is doing the casting, you can't cast yourself and even if you could - you can be damn sure no one is casting them self into a place where they're going to suffer for all eternity. That is not how I choose to use my free will. Wait what? I have no choice?! .. I have to got to hell if I don't love your god??? But I thought I had free will.

You see, You Lie to make your god sound just and loving. Who created Hell? Who's been casting millions of people into hell for thousands of years? It sure as shit aint the devil.

Self imposed my ass! Your own Bible contradicts this point. You are lying to attempt to justify the actions of your self-absorbed god. There's no way around it.

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(August 3, 2011 at 3:16 am)Godschild Wrote: My God has a great love for me, I see it in my life, experience it every day. He loves you too Cinjin whether you like it or not, your thoughts and disbelief about God changes nothing about his nature and it is His nature to love all of mankind.
As far as adding nothing new don't need to when it's the truth, truth can and does stand on it's own.

(August 3, 2011 at 3:22 am)Cinjin Wrote:

(August 3, 2011 at 2:58 am)Godschild Wrote: It's totally self imposed, you make the choice not God, He gives you what you ask for. Why is it you can not see that. That is a thought not a question. As for the punishment one will torment themselves with a hatred for God that goes beyond anything you can imagine.

Yet another outright lie. The Bible clearly says that the unrighteous are CAST into the lake of fire. Being cast is NOT self imposed - someone is doing the casting, you can't cast yourself and even if you could - you can be damn sure no one is casting them self into a place where they're going to suffer for all eternity. That is not how I choose to use my free will. Wait what? I have no choice?! .. I have to got to hell if I don't love your god??? But I thought I had free will.

You see, You Lie to make your god sound just and loving. Who created Hell? Who's been casting millions of people into hell for thousands of years? It sure as shit aint the devil.

Self imposed my ass! Your own Bible contradicts this point. You are lying to attempt to justify the actions of your self-absorbed god. There's no way around it.

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(August 3, 2011 at 3:16 am)Godschild Wrote: My God has a great love for me, I see it in my life, experience it every day. He loves you too Cinjin whether you like it or not, your thoughts and disbelief about God changes nothing about his nature and it is His nature to love all of mankind.
As far as adding nothing new don't need to when it's the truth, truth can and does stand on it's own.

It's sad that you are incapable of understanding the truths of scripture, someone has to show them where hell is, scripture says that hell is on the other side of an impassable abiss, so only by the omnipotent God could they get there.

(August 3, 2011 at 2:58 am)Godschild Wrote: It's totally self imposed, you make the choice not God, He gives you what you ask for. Why is it you can not see that. That is a thought not a question. As for the punishment one will torment themselves with a hatred for God that goes beyond anything you can imagine.

What you fail to realize is that god is committing extortion for your beliefs.

Would you love god as much if he didn't send people to hell for not believing in him? If the answer is no, then you are afraid of him. If the answer is yes, then what is the purpose of hell beyond punishment and placation of god's ego?

Outside of god? What is that shorthand for Frodo? You linked me the page, don't tell me you didn't actually read it? Aren't you simply rephrasing your argument here, in support of your argument? Give me something, show me why I should believe that the immaterial even exists Frodo.

If your assumption that religion concerns the immaterial is true. At what point can we look at something and say "There it is, the immaterial world interacting with the material world". If there is no such point, then what, exactly, is the immaterial world superceding here, in the material word? If you want religion to be immaterial, then claims of a material nature would need to be removed from your belief system. They would, at the very least, have to be plainly restated as metaphor. If you are arguing that the metaphor of god is somehow true, I may argue with you on what that metaphor is, exactly, but are we even talking about a god at that point, or are we discussing a metaphor? What distinguishes god from an imaginary friend who gives you advice? Then, how do you make value judgements as to which type of imaginary friend is the type that one should be imagining. Why not a pagan god, why indeed, a god at all?

Also, GC you have any evidence of god, or perhaps evidence of his love? We're on pins and needles. Endless parade of baseless shit, I won't give you a pass on it either, because I refuse to accept any claims to ignorance that are so severe. I know you have some level of education, and just by being here, chatting it up with us, you've demonstrated that you are capable of reasoning. Now do it. Make all of your arguments worth a shit in one single act of brilliance. Provide evidence.

(edited as an attempt to remain civil, and for clarity)

(August 3, 2011 at 5:23 am)FaithNoMore Wrote:

(August 3, 2011 at 2:58 am)Godschild Wrote: It's totally self imposed, you make the choice not God, He gives you what you ask for. Why is it you can not see that. That is a thought not a question. As for the punishment one will torment themselves with a hatred for God that goes beyond anything you can imagine.

What you fail to realize is that god is committing extortion for your beliefs.

Would you love god as much if he didn't send people to hell for not believing in him? If the answer is no, then you are afraid of him. If the answer is yes, then what is the purpose of hell beyond punishment and placation of god's ego?

You are trying to avoid what scriptures teach, there is a hell, there's no changing that, it is what it is.

Yes, I am trying to avoid hell. I've been damned good at it thus far, perhaps your boogeyman should step up his game?

(August 3, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: Give me something, show me why I should believe that the immaterial even exists Frodo.

The idiocy here is in the misplaced aim.

(August 3, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: If your assumption that religion concerns the immaterial is true. At what point can we look at something and say "There it is, the immaterial world interacting with the material world".

If the immaterial interacts with the material what tool would you use to measure the effect?

The result can only be physical, and the explanation physical
The understanding can only be metaphysical.