Quote:Did it really? I would have thought the Nazis would have viewed the Irish as untermencshen, since they were a relatively backward country.

They blamed Irelands poverty on Britain seeing  Ireland as a country that was ravaged by foreigners and denied greatness  .And they admired Irelands status as the land of scholars and poets . Not to mention the fact that many of northern Europes greatest missionaries had been Irish .

Kind of odd if you think of it, but I think historically Germany/Prussia treated Poland quite similarly to how the Brits treated Ireland.

The historic areas of Germany that bordered Poland were basically all Lutheran and they had been viewing the Poles as untermenschen for centuries before Hitler. Not exactly sure why, since Warsaw and Cracow were modern cities, but whatever

(August 30, 2017 at 1:00 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: Kind of odd if you think of it, but I think historically Germany/Prussia treated Poland quite similarly to how the Brits treated Ireland.

The historic areas of Germany  that bordered Poland were basically all Lutheran and they had been viewing the Poles as untermenschen for centuries before Hitler. Not exactly sure why, since Warsaw and Cracow were modern cities, but whatever

Empire is hypocrisy

(August 30, 2017 at 1:00 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: Kind of odd if you think of it, but I think historically Germany/Prussia treated Poland quite similarly to how the Brits treated Ireland.

The historic areas of Germany  that bordered Poland were basically all Lutheran and they had been viewing the Poles as untermenschen for centuries before Hitler. Not exactly sure why, since Warsaw and Cracow were modern cities, but whatever

The difference is once upon a time, say between 15th and 17th century, it was Poland that was the great European power in the region while Prussia was kinda insignificant.  It was the great polish army that broke the siege of Vienna by the hitherto invincible armies of the ottoman Turks, and saved Central Europe and the heart of Christiandom from becoming a province of the sultan in Constantinople.   The Prussians or brandenbergers or whatever they called themselves at the time were scarcely to be seen.  I think the germans never lived that down.   Those with a superiority complex usually have a nagging feeling of inferiority in their innermost selves.    The Germans may have been particularly vicious to the poles because the poles do have a memory of national greatness they refuse to abandon, and remember when the Prussians were nobody back when, and are not too Impressed with the prussians now.

(August 30, 2017 at 11:53 am)CatholicDefender Wrote: Isn't it true that Catholic Ireland was something of an Axis Power, sort of similar to Spain?

No, Ireland was neutral.

(August 30, 2017 at 11:53 am)CatholicDefender Wrote: Isn't it true that Catholic Ireland was something of an Axis Power, sort of similar to Spain?

No. Ireland* always operated under democratically elected governments after independence in 1922. Unless you're talking about the Protestant Statelet in Northern Ireland (1922-1969).

While the catholic church had (and arguably still has) too much influence over politics and society for a long time, every government in Ireland served at worst with a plurality consensus of the citizens of the country elected under a very democratic mandate (the single transferrable vote ensures that the make up of each Dáil, aside from slightly overrepresenting independents, accurately represents the percentage vote across the country). The two main parties have historically being clones of the UK Tories (with slight differences Fianna Fail traditionally supported small farmers, Fine Gael* supported big ones) while the half party (the Irish system has traditionally been called "two and half party system") was Labour the exact same as UK Labour except for more Irish language and adopting the Third Way slightly earlier (the Spring Tide of 1992).

While de Valera had some corperatist tendencies he, for the most part, supported democracy (well after getting his arse handed to him in the Civil War), and it was only in economic areas that the thought fascist ideas were worth looking at. And frankly he abandoned those ideas once he started seeing the shit going on in Mussolini's even more catholic Italy.

*Fine Gael's birth is the closest the country ever came to having a fascist party with the reverse take over of the much larger Cumann na nGaedhal party by the tiny Army Comrades Association of General Eoin O'Duffy (a policeman). Fortunately for Irish politics the politicians in Fine Gael took back the party inside of six months and the fascists tried to organise a derisory column to support Franco (so derisory he sent them home in ignomony).

(August 30, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(August 30, 2017 at 11:53 am)CatholicDefender Wrote: Isn't it true that Catholic Ireland was something of an Axis Power, sort of similar to Spain?

No, Ireland was neutral.

But Ireland made sure to send an official telegram of condolence to the Reich Chancellory after Hitler killed himself, even though Germany was only a few days from unconditional surrender and the magnitude of the crimes at auschwitz and other death camps were already universally known around the world.

Even Switzerland didn't bother.

(August 30, 2017 at 12:10 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(August 30, 2017 at 11:53 am)CatholicDefender Wrote: Isn't it true that Catholic Ireland was something of an Axis Power, sort of similar to Spain?

Nope like Spain Ireland was neutral . Thou the IRA were very sympathetic to Axis . And Irishmen  fought on both sides . And both the Axis And Allies planned an invasion of Ireland . And Ireland had many sympathizers in Germany as it held significance to both the Christian and minority pagan elements .

There was no Allied plan to invade Ireland. There was however a plan to evacuate the British government and the RAF to Ireland (with the government going on to Canada after) if the planned invasion of Britain was successful, with Ireland declaring war at that point on Germany. This was a plan made up by both governments in tandem, with the Irish state even going so far as to build airfields sufficient to hold a number of fighter wings in the interior of the island.

Interestingly enough more people from the "disloyal" Free State fought against the Axis in WW2 than from the "loyal" North. Churchill was actually all for trying to force Ireland, as a dominion, to declare war on Germany, but was stopped by a combination of the other Dominions not liking the curtailing of their freedoms under the Statute of Westminster, and British generals who knew they'd get no more Irish soldiers from the Oglaigh na hÉireann (Irish army), but would get them at a much lower equipment level and organisation level than just taking them as volunteers.

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(August 30, 2017 at 2:54 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 30, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: No, Ireland was neutral.

But Ireland made sure to send an official telegram of condolence to the Reich Chancellory after Hitler killed himself, even though Germany was only a few days from unconditional surrender and the magnitude of the crimes at auschwitz and other death camps were already universally known around the world.

Even Switzerland didn't bother.

That was de Valera asserting his independence after an unusually vitriolic attack on him and on Ireland by Churchill. Now it was totally the wrong thing to do, but Ireland probably did more for the Allied war effort in terms of both Irish men fighting, Irish women going to the UK and working and intelligence work (the best intelligence on German u-boats until 1943 was gotten by the UK from Irish state agents on lookout around Irish shores) than quite a few countries who declared on Germany during the war, you can understand deV wanting to put one in the eye of Churchill when he shat all over the help Ireland gave the UK.

I have to respectfully disagree about allies not planning an invasion

Quote:In 1940, Prime Minister Churchill directed the army to make preparations to storm the Republic of Ireland from the north to repel any Nazi assault along the southern coast of the island. Under terms of the plan, codenamed “W”, the British 53rd and 61st infantry divisions would be stationed near Belfast. If called into action, the former would move to secure Dublin and then race to the coast to attack any German beachheads, while the latter would move south down the west side of Ireland, securing port facilities before linking up with the 53rd. A brigade of Royal Marines waited in Wales with orders to cross over to Ireland and hold strategic bridges near Wexford in the southwest. In addition, three Hurricane squadrons and Anson bomber wings would be rushed to airfields near Dublin to pummel the invaders from the skies. London was explicit that the invasion would only be initiated if the Irish government asked for help, however British commanders didn’t expect the whole of the population of the republic to welcome the occupation. To that end, Plan W called for the British to crush resistance, commandeer infrastructure and to shut down the telephone system if necessary, without the consent of local authorities.

Since independence, Ireland had spent years organizing its small national army to meet a British invasion. Most of its troops were stationed along the northern border. However with the Nazi threat looming, Dublin drafted all new strategies based around Anglo-Irish cooperation. The national air corps equipped itself with British aircraft like Gloster Gladiators and Avro Ansons, while the army discarded its grey uniforms and German Stahlhelm-style helmets in favour of olive drab and British Mk II Brodie helmets (to avoid confusion on the battlefields).

Ultimately, all such plans proved unnecessary – Ireland remained largely untouched by World War Two.

http://militaryhistorynow.com/2015/03/15...rald-isle/

(August 30, 2017 at 2:54 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 30, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: No, Ireland was neutral.

But Ireland made sure to send an official telegram of condolence to the Reich Chancellory after Hitler killed himself, even though Germany was only a few days from unconditional surrender and the magnitude of the crimes at auschwitz and other death camps were already universally known around the world.

Even Switzerland didn't bother.

I didn't know that. I did know that they were, as neutrals go, generally hostile to British interests, to the point of refusing docking facilities for merchantmen sailing for the UK even as the Germans were depredating them fiercely with their U-boats.

But given the Irish history within and leaving the UK, some bitterness was probably both inevitable, and pro forma.