Oh, come on! Coke is so yesterday. Everyone in the streets know Dr.Pepper is the new high.

(August 3, 2011 at 11:19 am)Judas BentHer Wrote: He knew what he was doing from before he sent an angel to rape Mary,

Well I mean c'mon. You saw how Mary was dressed... she was just asking for it.

You mean because she was wearing that sign on her head that pointed toward the heavens and read; "Perpetual virgin here! *downward pointing arrow* WILL TRAMP FOR JESUS! Take me god!"

Who knew he could read?

(August 3, 2011 at 4:21 am)Veracity Wrote:

(August 3, 2011 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote:

(August 2, 2011 at 2:07 am)Veracity Wrote: Hello there, this is only my second post here and I don't have a clear idea of how many christians hang around these parts so this could end up being completely irrelevant. Advanced apologies if that scenario plays true.

I've never received a straight answer on this from a christian. They either go out of their way to qualify a yes with a no, or say 'it would be against god's plan' and stop at that. Maybe I'll get some insight from some ex-christians here at the very least.

If you were present and capable of saving Jesus from his crucifixion - or at least capable of attempting, knowing all you know about the man, that he's your savior - would you try to save him from his fate? And just so it's clear, the question isn't about whether or not it's against god's will or plan, the question is would you save a man from murder that you consider your savior and reason for being?

Of course, this is obviously asked from a strictly christian perspective. But to set the record straight, as an atheist with absolutely no affinity towards Jesus, the answer is crystal clear to me. I'd save the man in a heart beat. So why is it that christians struggle so much in coming up with an answer for this one? Is it selfishness? Would they let the man they consider responsible for their 'salvation' die in order to receive said salvation?

Also, apologies if there's already a thread around here similar to this. I did search for it but came up with nothing.

Hope you find this answer to your satisfaction, first of all you are talking about time travel to the past and that's impossible so I could not if I desired to. But let's look at this as from the point you asked the question from. No I would not, why, because knowing all that I do of why Jesus died for me it would be an act of selfishness, to do what you suggest would be to make myself look and feel good, I would be depriving others of salvation not to mention my self. Who am I to interfer with what God has decided to do for mankind. Jesus explained to his disciples that He would be crucified and when the time came they did not try and stop it and neither would you, you as all others would have been shaking in your sandals as the Romans crucified Him, believe what you like, but the truth is you would not have, for the fear of your own life. Besides to be murdered ones life must be taken when one is unwilling to die, Jesus on the other hand said that he was willingly giving His life " no one takes My life I willingly give it in love for mankind." So you see I do not struggle with your question, I accept what Christ has done for myself and all of mankind.

So the salvation of others is more important than the life of your savior. Admirably by your book, at least. It's not satisfactory though. I find your sense of altruism intriguing but ultimately false. Looking good has nothing to do with respecting all human life. Has your boy taught you nothing? Who exactly would you be trying to look good for, anyhow? Also, you seem like you're projecting fairly hard when you question whether or not I or anyone else would be capable of making an attempt to interfere with his execution. If it's not within you to try and save a life from an unjust end, simply state that. Don't assume the rest of us are cowards. I realize the act of sacrificing one for the supposed good of the rest is deeply embedded within you as a christian, but it's not just one we're talking about here. It's your savior/martyr. It's the man you believe to have faced a gruesome, prolonged murder when he was simply trying to spread truth. Would a man such as Jesus be unable to find a better way, a more enlightening and less emotional/fear driven way to display his love for 'us'? Surely in your eyes there would've been benefits to Jesus having a few more days in his life at the very least.

I mean, maybe he could've put this plan back in the cooker for awhile and discussed the recipe with his father one more time. Surely it should've been the perfect plan, no? But if it were perfect, would forums like these exist?

Kudos for having the balls to give me a first straight answer.

Without Christ's death there is no salvation and as far as Christ needing to rethink the plan... well let's see, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and eternity in which to use these seems to conclude that there was only one way and that would be what took place. You need to stick to the parameters you gave me to answer the question, I was not to use God's will yet you questioned His will, stay within your own rules. Yes the plan was perfect, it came from the perfect mind of God, yes there would be forums like this because this perfect plan will only work if freewill is envolved.
Looking good for no one person, I said it would be a selfish act which implies me mostly. No one there tried to save Him, I wonder why, they were afraid of the Roman soldiers and rightly so, they would have found themselves hanging on a cross too, you are no braver than those who were there and besides your thinking in todays thoughts not in the time of Roman terror. Law today and law in that time are far different, apparently more than you can imagine.
This is your statement "it's your saviour/martyr," now if I'm not mistaken to be a martyr one must die for a cause, if Christ had not died He could not have been my saviour/martyr now could He. The plan was perfect and thus the timing had to be perfect, Christ himself said on the cross it is finished, I would think that He most of all would have known when to finish His work. From the time of Abraham to the birth of Christ one sect of people (Israelites) had an enlightened way, the Law of Moses and they failed completely, so no there was no enlightening the human race. The fear factor you mentioned must be your own fear, christians see what Christ did as an incredible act of love. I bet you believe you came up with an original question, this is a topic that was discussed in my church many years ago and everyone there would give you the same answer, why, because we have studied the Bible intensely and understand what God had to do and why. You should study the Bible from beginning to end and I do not mean just read through it, get a good study Bible, I suggest the New American Standard it's generally accepted as the best translation and The New Strong's Concordance would be helpful also.

(August 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 3, 2011 at 4:21 am)Veracity Wrote:

(August 3, 2011 at 3:48 am)Godschild Wrote:

(August 2, 2011 at 2:07 am)Veracity Wrote: Hello there, this is only my second post here and I don't have a clear idea of how many christians hang around these parts so this could end up being completely irrelevant. Advanced apologies if that scenario plays true.

I've never received a straight answer on this from a christian. They either go out of their way to qualify a yes with a no, or say 'it would be against god's plan' and stop at that. Maybe I'll get some insight from some ex-christians here at the very least.

If you were present and capable of saving Jesus from his crucifixion - or at least capable of attempting, knowing all you know about the man, that he's your savior - would you try to save him from his fate? And just so it's clear, the question isn't about whether or not it's against god's will or plan, the question is would you save a man from murder that you consider your savior and reason for being?

Of course, this is obviously asked from a strictly christian perspective. But to set the record straight, as an atheist with absolutely no affinity towards Jesus, the answer is crystal clear to me. I'd save the man in a heart beat. So why is it that christians struggle so much in coming up with an answer for this one? Is it selfishness? Would they let the man they consider responsible for their 'salvation' die in order to receive said salvation?

Also, apologies if there's already a thread around here similar to this. I did search for it but came up with nothing.

Hope you find this answer to your satisfaction, first of all you are talking about time travel to the past and that's impossible so I could not if I desired to. But let's look at this as from the point you asked the question from. No I would not, why, because knowing all that I do of why Jesus died for me it would be an act of selfishness, to do what you suggest would be to make myself look and feel good, I would be depriving others of salvation not to mention my self. Who am I to interfer with what God has decided to do for mankind. Jesus explained to his disciples that He would be crucified and when the time came they did not try and stop it and neither would you, you as all others would have been shaking in your sandals as the Romans crucified Him, believe what you like, but the truth is you would not have, for the fear of your own life. Besides to be murdered ones life must be taken when one is unwilling to die, Jesus on the other hand said that he was willingly giving His life " no one takes My life I willingly give it in love for mankind." So you see I do not struggle with your question, I accept what Christ has done for myself and all of mankind.

So the salvation of others is more important than the life of your savior. Admirably by your book, at least. It's not satisfactory though. I find your sense of altruism intriguing but ultimately false. Looking good has nothing to do with respecting all human life. Has your boy taught you nothing? Who exactly would you be trying to look good for, anyhow? Also, you seem like you're projecting fairly hard when you question whether or not I or anyone else would be capable of making an attempt to interfere with his execution. If it's not within you to try and save a life from an unjust end, simply state that. Don't assume the rest of us are cowards. I realize the act of sacrificing one for the supposed good of the rest is deeply embedded within you as a christian, but it's not just one we're talking about here. It's your savior/martyr. It's the man you believe to have faced a gruesome, prolonged murder when he was simply trying to spread truth. Would a man such as Jesus be unable to find a better way, a more enlightening and less emotional/fear driven way to display his love for 'us'? Surely in your eyes there would've been benefits to Jesus having a few more days in his life at the very least.

I mean, maybe he could've put this plan back in the cooker for awhile and discussed the recipe with his father one more time. Surely it should've been the perfect plan, no? But if it were perfect, would forums like these exist?

Kudos for having the balls to give me a first straight answer.

Without Christ's death there is no salvation and as far as Christ needing to rethink the plan... well let's see, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and eternity in which to use these seems to conclude that there was only one way and that would be what took place. You need to stick to the parameters you gave me to answer the question, I was not to use God's will yet you questioned His will, stay within your own rules. Yes the plan was perfect, it came from the perfect mind of God, yes there would be forums like this because this perfect plan will only work if freewill is envolved.
Looking good for no one person, I said it would be a selfish act which implies me mostly. No one there tried to save Him, I wonder why, they were afraid of the Roman soldiers and rightly so, they would have found themselves hanging on a cross too, you are no braver than those who were there and besides your thinking in todays thoughts not in the time of Roman terror. Law today and law in that time are far different, apparently more than you can imagine.
This is your statement "it's your saviour/martyr," now if I'm not mistaken to be a martyr one must die for a cause, if Christ had not died He could not have been my saviour/martyr now could He. The plan was perfect and thus the timing had to be perfect, Christ himself said on the cross it is finished, I would think that He most of all would have known when to finish His work. From the time of Abraham to the birth of Christ one sect of people (Israelites) had an enlightened way, the Law of Moses and they failed completely, so no there was no enlightening the human race. The fear factor you mentioned must be your own fear, christians see what Christ did as an incredible act of love. I bet you believe you came up with an original question, this is a topic that was discussed in my church many years ago and everyone there would give you the same answer, why, because we have studied the Bible intensely and understand what God had to do and why. You should study the Bible from beginning to end and I do not mean just read through it, get a good study Bible, I suggest the New American Standard it's generally accepted as the best translation and The New Strong's Concordance would be helpful also.

So many assumptions in this post. A response for most of it isn't even worth my time. But I will say this: Your cowardice is certainly showing in full. "I nor anyone actually present at his crucifixion have a backbone thus would/did do nothing and you wouldn't either." - Biggest load of bullshit you could possibly bring to the table.

(August 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)Godschild Wrote: well let's see, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and eternity in which to use these seems to conclude that there was only one way and that would be what took place.

He's omnipotent. He can do anything he wants. Why does he need to sacrifice an incarnation of himself in order to do so if he can do anything?

(August 3, 2011 at 5:31 pm)edk141 Wrote:

(August 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)Godschild Wrote: well let's see, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and eternity in which to use these seems to conclude that there was only one way and that would be what took place.

He's omnipotent. He can do anything he wants. Why does he need to sacrifice an incarnation of himself in order to do so if he can do anything?

Cause EMOTIONS.

(August 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)Godschild Wrote: Without Christ's death there is no salvation...

Without god creating imperfect humans, the "moral wrongdoing, offense against God, misdeed" that is sin, would not be possible so as to make being saved from what god made us to be, necessary according to god's requirement that we be redeemed for our innate moral wrongdoing, offenses against him and misdeeds, so that he can forgive us for being the imperfect sinful humans he created us to be, as we commit such offenses against god that would be impossible if a perfect being had exercised his free will to create us truly in his image and likeness as supreme perfect beings.

But he chose not to.

Quote:

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes” Gene Roddenberry

Quote:Without Christ's death there is no salvation

Nor with it.

Quirky.
God had to kill himself to save faulty humans from himself, because he loves us.