(September 12, 2017 at 10:53 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 11, 2017 at 11:49 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: There are no monuments to Hitler in Berlin.

No, but if there were, I would support that fact. That's because a statue is not a person-- it is at this point a historical curiosity. Caesar was a dick in many ways, too, but I wouldn't object to his statue being in Rome. In fact, I would find it interesting, and take it as a chance to ponder that stage of history.

I really do not believe that the so-called aggrieved parties right now-- black people who claim to be deeply and mortally offended by the presence of confederate statues in those states which fought on the confederate side, for example, or even worse the SJWs who deign to speak on their behalf-- are really deeply harmed by the existence of those monuments, except if they make it a point to do so.

The hysterical rhetoric that so often follows these issues is, in my opinion, drummed up histrionics. Overall, the statue's existence or lack of existence, its display or its lack of display, really shouldn't matter as much as people pretend.

Feelings are very easy to dismiss when you'll never feel them yourself.

(September 12, 2017 at 2:01 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Feelings are very easy to dismiss when you'll never feel them yourself.

They're also an easy way to get the morally weak to give up the freedoms of all over the fear of the few.

(September 12, 2017 at 1:53 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 1:39 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: If you put up plaques on the pedestals that put their actions into context, they might.

People don't get their history from statues.

To an extent, we do. The first time I ever heard of the Holocaust was from seeing a statue on my local village green dedicated to the Holocaust and the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising, ultimately leading to an obsession I still study today. I honestly think it's possible that a statue can nudge someone in the right direction, especially, if it acknowledges both sides of the controversy on a plaque.

That said, I still think that statue on the village green could benefit from a mention of the 60 million Germans who just went along with Hitler as well as the 6 million who died.

(September 12, 2017 at 12:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Ah, the good ole 'Damn kids these days' canard.  And you do realize that it isn't only young people that want to move the statues...right?

And removing a statue is hardly 'genocide on a meme' or 'squashing free speech.'  Open a book, go to a museum, watching a documentary, and stop being so sloppily hyperbolic.

What has changed about the world in the past few years that merits the removal of statues that may have stood for a hundred? Has the history become more immediate? Has the issue of slavery become more critical?

(September 12, 2017 at 2:27 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 12:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Ah, the good ole 'Damn kids these days' canard.  And you do realize that it isn't only young people that want to move the statues...right?

And removing a statue is hardly 'genocide on a meme' or 'squashing free speech.'  Open a book, go to a museum, watching a documentary, and stop being so sloppily hyperbolic.

What has changed about the world in the past few years that merits the removal of statues that may have stood for a hundred?  Has the history become more immediate?  Has the issue of slavery become more critical?

What does the length of time they've stood have to do with anything?  If your primary concern is the age of a historical artifact, then stick it in a museum, not on a public pedestal (literally). Many, many of these statues were constructed during the civil rights movement as an explicit warning/threat to blacks.  As black people have gotten more voice/rights/capability in our society (which is still lacking, by the way), these issues have come up again several times recently (Charleston, maybe?), so yes, the issues behind these statues and the beliefs that both their constructors and honorees held have become more relevant lately.

And what rights are we giving up?  This isn't a Constitutional issue at all - it's up to the town.  You can agree or disagree with with their decisions either way, but calling people who want to move or remove the statues as 'morally weak' or 'committing genocide on ideas' or 'squashing free speech' is fucking ridiculous man.  What would you call the people that brandish nazi and confederate flags in support of keeping the statues up?  I don't know when you went off the deep end, Benny, but damn dude.

(September 12, 2017 at 2:24 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 1:53 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: People don't get their history from statues.

To an extent, we do. The first time I ever heard of the Holocaust was from seeing a statue on my local village green dedicated to the Holocaust and the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising, ultimately leading to an obsession I still study today. I honestly think it's possible that a statue can nudge someone in the right direction, especially, if it acknowledges both sides of the controversy on a plaque.

That said, I still think that statue on the village green could benefit from a mention of the 60 million Germans who just went along with Hitler as well as the 6 million who died.

Quibble. You got a clue and actually followed up on it. You are the exception, very much the exception. Most people thing Stalin and Genghis Kahn were classmates in school.

---

(September 12, 2017 at 2:27 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 12:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Ah, the good ole 'Damn kids these days' canard.  And you do realize that it isn't only young people that want to move the statues...right?

And removing a statue is hardly 'genocide on a meme' or 'squashing free speech.'  Open a book, go to a museum, watching a documentary, and stop being so sloppily hyperbolic.

What has changed about the world in the past few years that merits the removal of statues that may have stood for a hundred?  Has the history become more immediate?  Has the issue of slavery become more critical?

We have finally come to grips with the idea that the KKK paid for those statues with the intent of reminding the Negros where their place was in society. Should we continue that tradition?

Quote:What has changed about the world in the past few years that merits the removal of statues that may have stood for a hundred?  Has the history become more immediate?  Has the issue of slavery become more critical?

Blacks don't have to ride in the back of the bus anymore or drink from separate water coolers.  That has changed and they are speaking up about the gross indignities heaped on them by redneck fucktards for 100 years.  This is what they are honoring.





Not this:

Well, if people can't handle the responsibility of thinking critically about their past, perhaps it's best if they were moved somewhere else where their historical context can be appreciated.

Just don't fall into the trap of a Manichaean view of history, whether it's Pro or Anti- Confederacy. Because, quite frankly, that's what really bothers me about the whole issue: the assumption (endemic on both sides of the aisle) that they somehow represent unalloyed good.

And remember to put any monuments to Christopher Columbus away, while you're at it; he has less going for him than Robert E. Lee.

Just curious.... how many other nations do you suppose put up statues of traitors?

(September 12, 2017 at 4:00 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Well, if people can't handle the responsibility of thinking critically about their past, perhaps it's best if they were moved somewhere else where their historical context can be appreciated.

Just don't fall into the trap of a Manichaean view of history, whether it's Pro or Anti- Confederacy. Because, quite frankly, that's what really bothers me about the whole issue: the assumption (endemic on both sides of the aisle) that they somehow represent unalloyed good.

And remember to put any monuments to Christopher Columbus away, while you're at it; he has less going for him than Robert E. Lee.

I agree that the slaver Columbus doesn't belong on public property. But I have to ask why you refuse to realize that we're talking about public property here, not EVERYFUCKINGSTATUEOFSOMEREDNECKANYWHEREONEARTH? Just wondering.