(August 5, 2011 at 2:23 pm)Judas BentHer Wrote: Love doesn't promise to create infernos to consume the people god is in love with.
And self-respect doesn't argue that when it does, it's because we deserved it.

Quote:Well, it's the same old error of ignoring the rest of God's character.

Quote:20 “You are my hammer and weapon of war:
with you I break nations in pieces;
with you I destroy kingdoms;
21 with you I break in pieces the horse and his rider;
with you I break in pieces the chariot and the charioteer;
22 with you I break in pieces man and woman;
with you I break in pieces the old man and the youth;
with you I break in pieces the young man and the young woman;
23 with you I break in pieces the shepherd and his flock;
with you I break in pieces the farmer and his team;
with you I break in pieces governors and commanders.

24 “I will repay Babylon and all the inhabitants of Chaldea before your very eyes for all the evil that they have done in Zion, declares the Lord.

25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain,
declares the Lord,
which destroys the whole earth;
I will stretch out my hand against you,
and roll you down from the crags,
and make you a burnt mountain.
26 No stone shall be taken from you for a corner
and no stone for a foundation,
but you shall be a perpetual waste,
declares the Lord.

(August 5, 2011 at 5:16 pm)Emanuel Wrote: Well, it's the same old error of ignoring the rest of God's character. But nice try though.

(August 5, 2011 at 2:23 pm)Judas BentHer Wrote:

(August 4, 2011 at 2:42 am)Godschild Wrote: ...Because of one thing you do not understand, God's love for mankind.

You are absolutely correct.

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I can not understand how the countless murders orchestrated by god, or committed by him directly, is proof of love.
It's proof he loves to kill people. It's proof those left alive can excuse that wholesale murder and say of it; well, he's god and since he created it he can destroy it so that doesn't equate murder!

I can not understand how a god created imperfect humans that omniscience knew would disappoint, and then called that disappointment and the human nature that is prone to making mistakes and disappointing a perfect higher consciousness, would choose to hold those humans accountable for being exactly what they were made to do by the creator that chose to make them disappointing. By calling their mistakes sins and appointing their destiny for finite errors unto infinite suffering in a fiery pit of his creation.

I don't understand how love lets the world suffer as those sinners of his creation by will alone, until god decides to become human, minister a new testament to the Jews who were the bullies, the murderers, the rapists, the thieves, by proxy through the will and command of god throughout the old testament,so that his chosen people would renounce him for blasphemy, a sin, so that god would achieve his destiny being tortured and nailed to a cross so as to hang there as a message to the world that it was so because after all those millennia, he decided he would forgive humans for being imperfect and disappointing him, if only they'd see his murder on a cross as proof he loves them now, if only they'll accept that is proof of love so that their god made sinful human nature would still remain, but they'd be forgiven for it by his deed.

When they weren't permitted to avoid it all together by his will to create them in the beginning, perfect and thus unable to disappoint the all knowing watcher of all that exists as his creation.

Because as it stands, on the record, for a supreme consciousness to create a being that is destined to disappoint omniscience, after having been created in the image and likeness of omnipotence, it makes for a horrific testament to love, when all that ensued after Genesis 1 & 2 was chaos, murder, slavery, rape, genocide, patricide, matricide, infanticide, plagues and the drowning of the world. All because it was deemed necessary by god, to bring his creation into line under his authority as supreme judge of the sinful behaviors that necessitated those aforementioned campaigns in reprisal and so as to insure his dominion as the only god, upon the earth he created bearing humans that would then dare imagine other god's to exist.

I watched a movie once, "Joshua", wherein the lead character Joshua was the returned Jesus, as a typical man, a carpenter, come to immerse himself in the 20th century culture of a small town.
Of course no one knew he was Yeshua, which translates to Joshua, and so he with all his miracles that he worked as what appeared to be a simple man, was challenged by the local parish Priest.
So much so that Joshua was called to Rome, to answer for his acts in that small town. The Priest accusing him hefted a Bible aloft and asked Joshua what did he think this was? Implying that Joshua's behaviors, which included raising a man from the dead, and his teachings were not Biblical.
And Joshua replied to that question as to what he thought the Bible was; a love letter.

In today's world people have very different ideas of what love is. A woman who's beaten by her husband, when asked why does she stay and suffer so? Will answer, because I love him.

So there are a great many interpretations of what love means, and they all are a reflection of what the person defining and defending love, as to what that person believes they deserve in the name of love.
When that woman who's beaten by her husband says she loves him still, she's saying she loves him that beats her, bloodies her lip, blackens her eye, is intent on beating her to death with every blow of his fists, because men are stronger than women especially when enraged and their victim is cowed and begging it to stop. When he breaks her bones, knocks her unconscious, puts her in hospital ICU. She loves him.
And he loves her.

To the outsider that's not love. That's sadism, masochism, twisted abuse and bloody cowardice. It's dysfunction, mental illness, emotional withdrawal and terrorism.

So when you tell me, as I've read the Bible, that what I have to understand is god's love for mankind, I recall that bloodied battered woman. And I recall the scriptures describing all manner of slaughter, abuse, rape, terrorism, the drowning of the world. I recall the pardon the faithful give it claiming we earned it as sinners.

And I conclude that if all that is evidence of god's love for mankind, I'd wonder what his version of hate entails. But not for long. Because it's all a matter of perception and semantics.
Countless people have died and been martyred to the notion there can be only one god, when if there is only one, it's name and rituals dedicated to it are simply egoism and elitist petty differences surrounding semantics. But that's not considered, when the blood flows in the name of defending the one and it's image and likeness.

And when I read a terrorists diary, the Bible author inspired by the greatest terrorist in the universe or world history, imagined from the hearts of men to deserve worship and bloody sacrifice, and wars to establish it's monotheistic supremacy on earth, when all of that is a matter of faith and as such is defended as evidence of god's love for mankind, I pity you.

Because if that is love, as is understood, ordained and demonstrated by the creator of all understanding as to what love means, then there is either a glitch in supremacy of the unseen, or a fault in the consciousness of the believer in it, as to what love is. And as such it's again a matter of semantics.

For you it is love. Like unto that battered woman who takes her beating and loves her abuser during and after and for it. While those on the outside know in their understanding of love, that respect does not punch a wife's face in. Honor does not break the bones in her arms. Compassion does not blind her for the swelling behind the black bloody tissue that closes her eyes. And grace does not witness that and call it anything less than hate.

I shall admit the Bible implies every knee shall bend and every head shall bow. However, only amid those who think they deserve to be loved hated like that.

And remember, the next time god decides to exterminate the world for it's sins that shouldn't exist because he as Jesus died to take them away, he'll consume the world in flame.

Love doesn't promise to create infernos to consume the people god is in love with.
And self-respect doesn't argue that when it does, it's because we deserved it.

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(August 5, 2011 at 1:40 am)Godschild Wrote:

(August 4, 2011 at 9:38 am)Rhythm Wrote: I wish everyone who ever makes the statement "I would give my life for christ", would just get on with it already. There would be a far less noisy world in the wake of that event.

Seems you dislike loyalty, why is that my friend?

(August 5, 2011 at 7:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: I tried to tell you that you know nothing about God's love.

(August 5, 2011 at 7:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: I tried to tell you that you know nothing about God's love.

(August 5, 2011 at 7:29 pm)Judas BentHer Wrote:

(August 5, 2011 at 7:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: I tried to tell you that you know nothing about God's love.

But Carol, he beats you! He tried to kill you. He's vicious, jealous, possessive, an isolationist who insists he be your only companion in anything! Why do you stay?

(August 5, 2011 at 7:35 pm)BethK Wrote:

(August 5, 2011 at 7:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: I tried to tell you that you know nothing about God's love.

You're 100% right. I know nothing about God's love. When I read the Bible, I read
about a petty, ruthless tyrant. I read about a childish, immature, and very powerful
being who from time-to-time likes to destroy that which He has created.

Nothing I've read in the Bible shows me anything about love.

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(August 5, 2011 at 7:29 pm)Judas BentHer Wrote:

(August 5, 2011 at 7:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: I tried to tell you that you know nothing about God's love.

But Carol, he beats you! He tried to kill you. He's vicious, jealous, possessive, an isolationist who insists he be your only companion in anything! Why do you stay?

...And, he hardly ever talks to you. When he does, he does not communicate clearly, but in a set of metaphors. He abandons you for long periods of time. He's not much of a
companion. He threatens you with unspeakable tortures if you do anything he does not like during these periods
of abandonment, which he'll know about because he's keeping a constant eye on
your every move.

"Carol's" boyfriend/husband sounds like a first class stalker! And an abusive one at that.