(September 29, 2017 at 2:01 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Without this inner light (our positive emotions), then your life can only amount to nothing.

Say I don't have any positive emotions but I have negative ones and think they're positive. The effect is the same. Meh. This is all just the placebo effect. Your life amounts to something if you think it does. The only bad shit is suffering.

(September 29, 2017 at 2:06 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(September 29, 2017 at 2:01 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Without this inner light (our positive emotions), then your life can only amount to nothing.

This right here is merely a similarity to the flawed theistic notion that one cannot find meaning in life without god.

Would you be fine living a life where you could only acknowledge the good values of life and not be able to perceive them?  I personally think this is no way to live or be an artist.  It is a no quality standard of living.  Remember, you must pay attention to "what is" as I've explained earlier.  If you were to have no positive emotion such as due to anhedonia or misery and you thought to yourself that your life is still good and beautiful, then what is that for you?  Are they nothing but words going through your mind or are you actually seeing (perceiving) these good values?

(September 29, 2017 at 2:08 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Some would say that pleasure without meaning is empty.  

In which case I say the pleasure isn't sufficient enough in itself to stop the suffering which is why we feel empty. We crave pleasure intense enough to help us cope with our suffering... and if we're suffering a large amount that craving is higher... and that's why we feel the emptiness. This would also explain why sometimes addiction can be both a cause and an effect of depression. The more we're suffering... the harder we try to fill the void with pleasure... which can lead to all kinds of addictions.

I don't think there is any meaning. Pleasure is as good as it gets. Even when we fall in love and feel that there is meaning... that feeling of being in love is just a bunch of brain chemistry that gives us a higher form of physical pleasure... but it's still just physical pleasure. And like all other physical pleasure... it's fleeting.

And studies have shown that serotonin, dopamine and neuroadrenaline isn't enough for happiness. I think that's because happiness is different to pleasure. I think what most people call 'happiness' is just a coping mechanism for dealing with suffering. It's a placebo.

@TD
Who lives this way, do you imagine? Who..in your opinion, is not capable of perceiving and acknowledging "good values in life"?

(September 29, 2017 at 2:08 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(September 29, 2017 at 2:01 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Personally, I thought my sight analogy works very well to get my point across even though it might not be a perfect analogy. We can still use analogies and metaphors to get our points across even though they might not be perfect. They just have to be good enough to get our point across.


Without this inner light (our positive emotions), then your life can only amount to nothing.  Even without the light of god within us, acknowledging the values of things and situations would still be vital in order for you to make wise decisions.  But that can never replace the inner light which means our lives would still be empty without it.  The lives and artistic endeavors of genius artists who didn't have this inner light would also have amounted to nothing.  It doesn't matter how many magnificent goals they've achieved.  The inner light is the ultimate thing and nothing can replace it.  Without it, then you have nothing.  Remember, this religious worldview of mine could also take on a secular form as well if we are living in a purely naturalistic universe where there is no god, afterlife, or paranormal.  If it were to take on a secular form, rather than saying that our positive emotions are the inner light of god and that our lives would be empty without his inner light, we would instead say that our positive emotions are simply things we need.  Otherwise, our lives would be empty.

Some would say that pleasure without meaning is empty.  Is 'meaningfulness' an emotion?  I don't think so.  Regardless, studies have shown that people who are depressed have a more realistic assessment of things than those who are happy.  This seems anathema to your claim that positive emotions are foundational to identifying objectively positive values.

Beyond that, I just don't get what it is you are on about.  Good emotions feel good.  Bad emotions feel bad.  Got it.  So what?

Again, you can still identify (acknowledge) good values without positive emotions, but you cannot perceive them.  Also, all I am saying here is that, from my own personal experience which was a revelation, the positive emotions of joy in my life go far beyond simply acknowledging good values in my life.  The same thing applies to my feelings of misery and despair.  From this, I conclude that thoughts alone are no way to live.  It can only be our positive emotions that make our lives and artistic endeavors truly worth living for.

How can you identify something which you cannot perceive?

Okay, thoughts alone are no way to live. Who lives differently? Who is out there "living on thoughts alone"?

(September 29, 2017 at 2:18 pm)Khemikal Wrote: How can you identify something which you cannot perceive?

By pretending it's there.

(September 29, 2017 at 2:18 pm)Khemikal Wrote: How can you identify something which you cannot perceive?

Okay, thoughts alone are no way to live.  Who lives differently?  Who is out there "living on thoughts alone"?

A blind person could still identify an object even though he can't visualize it.  There are many anhedonic people out there who don't feel any emotions and there are miserable people out there who can only rely on thoughts of good value in their lives without their positive emotions.  Like I said, this is no way to live.

(September 29, 2017 at 2:18 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Also, all I am saying here is that, from my own personal experience which was a revelation, the positive emotions of joy in my life go far beyond simply acknowledging good values in my life.

Well I have 3 things to say to you.

1. You're very lucky.

2. And you are temporarily lucky. It won't last. And when your life starts to go down hill you will get frustrated with yourself and wonder why your philosophy isn't working and why you are so utterly powerless over your emotions.

3.This is because you can't control how you feel and you only believed you could before because your former happiness deluded you into thinking you had more power over your emotions than you did (how much power do you have over your emotions? The answer is: You have absolutely no power over your emotions. You are your emotions (or rather, you are you and your emotions are included... by the way this doesn't mean they're real). And you are just another movement of the universe. Whenever you feel you are in control... you are deluded).

Sorry to disappoint you and burst your bubble (you may not feel me burst your bubble yet... but you will feel it burst when it does burst... and who knows... maybe you will remember what I said too) but this philosophy of yours that you are all excited about... it won't last. This is just because you're happy right now and on a high... and you are mistakenly taking credit for your happiness. And the only reason you are deluded into taking credit for your happiness is because your happiness is deluding you. It's just a fucking placebo dude. You'll see... when it wears off. Happiness isn't real. The cake is a lie.

(September 29, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: A blind person could still identify an object even though he can't visualize it. 

I'm just trying to unravel this tangled mess you've made.  Referring back to Mary won't help here and was, as I initially commented, dubious to begin with.  I asked you how a person could identify something without being able to perceive it, as you claimed.  Not how a person could identify something without being able to see it.  

Quote:There are many anhedonic people out there who don't feel any emotions and there are miserable people out there who can only rely on thoughts of good value in their lives without their positive emotions.  Like I said, this is no way to live.

Can the anhedonic Happy Feel™ their way out of being anhedonic?  Is the thought of good value in someones life -not- a  locus of positive emotion?

Again, who lives this way? If it;s limited to people with a disorder making it -impoosible- for them to feel emotion, then of what use is your worldview to them? None. Of what use is it to people who already feel positive emotions without it?