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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 12:58 pm
Let's not be hasty CD...we should at least consider it. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:03 pm
(This post was last modified: October 11, 2017 at 1:03 pm by Jackalope.)
(October 11, 2017 at 12:57 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (October 11, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: No.
The end: World peace
The means: Universal genocide
QED
Or something even on a small scale.
The end: My mother gets her medicine for her asthma.
The means: I murdered an asthmatic in the alleyway for his inhaler.
I like reductio ad absurdum. 
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:03 pm
Bullshit philosophy.
REALITY
When it comes to conflict, humans compete and we are tribal. More often than not, we will get impatient and use force.
Evolution is a process, not a morality. It does not care with any species what works. Both cooperation and force works. Sharing and greed both work.
It is still up to humans to make the choice as to how we interact with each other.
If we are to side with more compassion and empathy and desire non violence, then the question posed is not the correct way to view human behavior.
POINT OF VIEW is always in the eye of the position holder. But that still has never changed that all 7 billion of us are the same species capable of both compassion and cruelty.
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:06 pm
(October 11, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (October 11, 2017 at 12:43 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: If the end is a good result, the means are justified.
No.
The end: World peace
The means: Universal genocide
QED
That is a particularly contrived example using an arbitrarily narrow view of “end”.
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:07 pm
Yeah but that's a pretty extreme scenario. Keep in mind, someone can agree that the end mostly justify the means, so even though their general philosophy would be that, there will be scenarios where they won't even consider it.
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:12 pm
Depends on the ends and/or then on the means.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:16 pm
(This post was last modified: October 11, 2017 at 1:18 pm by ErGingerbreadMandude.)
Scenario:
You have a young daughter. She is kidnapped, raped and killed. You know who did it but you don't have any evidence. Court rules the culprit not guilty due to lack of evidence. You kill the person.
End: Justice
Means: Murder
Does the "end does not justify the means" hold any water here?
Edit: It is again an extreme scenario. However, if we all reflect on our own actions and general attitude we find a pattern of what philosophy we mostly prefer.
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:17 pm
Can't I just off the fucker and not bother with any justification?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:19 pm
(This post was last modified: October 11, 2017 at 1:19 pm by FatAndFaithless.)
(October 11, 2017 at 1:16 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Scenario:
You have a young daughter. She is kidnapped, raped and killed. You know who did it but you don't have any evidence. Court rules the culprit not guilty due to lack of evidence. You kill the person.
End: Justice
Means: Murder
Does the "end does not justify the means" hold any water here?
No, it doesn't. Committing murder isn't justice. That's just emotional vengeance. I would be able to understand why someone would do that to someone who raped and killed their kid, but I certainly wouldn't say they did the right thing, and it wouldn't be justice. Now there's just one more murder in the list of murders throughout history.
There's also a lot of uncertainties in your scenario - such as how do they 'know' who did it if they don't have any evidence?
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Does the end ever justify the means?
October 11, 2017 at 1:19 pm
(This post was last modified: October 11, 2017 at 1:19 pm by bennyboy.)
(October 11, 2017 at 12:38 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Thinking further about our recent good person vs bad person discussions, my stand is that there are two types of people in our world:
1) People that agree with "The end justify the means"
2) People that disagree with "The end justify the means"
4 Questions:
* What type of person are you?
* What do you think of people with the opposite view?
* Can you maintain a good relation with someone with the opposite or same view?
* What do you most love and hate about your view and the opposite view?
The problem is that the future is unknown. So really, we're considering not a balance of guaranteed outcomes, but of chances.
If I knew, for example, that New York would be bombed by muslim terrorists (i.e. I had a time machine), then I might consider torturing or killing many thousands of innocents to get at the actual perpetrators.
But since that kind of information is impossible to have, I couldn't justify just randomly torturing or killing people because they might know a guy who knows a guy who talks big about what he wants to do to the US.
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