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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 11:09 am
(October 13, 2017 at 11:04 am)JackRussell Wrote: How the fuck do I "choose" not to believe?
I guess I "chose" to be straight, white and cranky too....
Saying crap like "You choose not to believe" is a way to shift the blame to the mortal rather than confronting one's gods.
Belief is an effect, not a cause. It is a reaction to incoming data. If that data is felt to be plausible, it is accepted and belief occurs.
Pretending to believe is IMO a psychologically deleterious state. Your mind has already made up its mind, so to speak, and telling yourself that you believe otherwise will just cause cognitive dissonance and a state of internal distrust.
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 11:45 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 11:47 am by The Grand Nudger.)
In christer theology, a person "chooses" to be a victim of a mugging, and then thanks the fucker what mugged him for all that "grace" and "mercy".
Cant imagine why that yields a person as truly broken as they always claim to be.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 12:50 pm
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 12:53 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(October 13, 2017 at 10:28 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 9:01 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Not really.
No, really. When your soul is held hostage, what decisions of yours aren't tainted by your god's threat of punishment?
That's kind of like saying to a married person what "decisions of yours aren't tainted by threat of divorce"? You serve God out of love not fear.
Many of you here have stated that if heaven exists, you wouldn't want to go there, so if all good things come from God, things like joy, peace, love, kindness, and so on... then hell is simply a place where none of those things exist.
Let's use the sun as an example for God, I think we can all agree that the sun is a good thing, yet imaging you have a group of people calling the sun evil because millions of people are dying of melanoma (even thought they have been provided with a lifetime supply of free sunscreen), and these folks announce that they would rather live on a planet where there's no sun.
Wouldn't that be a horrible existence?
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 12:53 pm
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 1:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If there's a threat of divorce in your marriage, you're probably doing it wrong, lol.
Sure, though, if theres something you want to do and the only reason you just can't do it is because the other half will leave you...then your will isn't free. The constraint is external and explicitly self stated. If your other half was credibly threatening to roast you in a pit of fire for doing x....though, you should probably go ahead and get that divorce. Bitch is violently crazy.
It;s just a matter of time until you wake up @ 0-dark thirty with her straddling you naked, mascara running down her cheeks..clutching your pistol screaming "You know why!"
-aaaand I guess that brings us back round to your god, huh Hugster?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 1:14 pm
(October 13, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 10:28 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: No, really. When your soul is held hostage, what decisions of yours aren't tainted by your god's threat of punishment?
That's kind of like saying to a married person what "decisions of yours aren't tainted by threat of divorce"? You serve God out of love not fear.
Put another way: If I point a gun to your head, and demand your wallet, are you giving your wallet to me truly out of free will?
(October 13, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Many of you here have stated that if heaven exists, you wouldn't want to go there, so if all good things come from God, things like joy, peace, love, kindness, and so on... then hell is simply a place where none of those things exist.
It's a good thing I didn't say that, then.
Also, your conclusion is a non sequitur.
(October 13, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Let's use the sun as an example for God, I think we can all agree that the sun is a good thing, yet imaging you have a group of people calling the sun evil because millions of people are dying of melanoma (even thought they have been provided with a lifetime supply of free sunscreen), and these folks announce that they would rather live on a planet where there's no sun.
Wouldn't that be a horrible existence?
Except the sun didn't create melanoma, and doesn't will it upon non-worshippers. The sun has no will at all. Your god is alleged to have created Hell, specifically to torment the souls of those who reject him. He holds their souls hostage.
A decision made under duress is by definition not free.
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 1:54 pm
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 2:17 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(October 13, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: That's kind of like saying to a married person what "decisions of yours aren't tainted by threat of divorce"? You serve God out of love not fear.
Put another way: If I point a gun to your head, and demand your wallet, are you giving your wallet to me truly out of free will? If the threat of hell is as strong as you say then why for example, do you have clergy members that abuse children? It seems that their free will is perfectly intact.
(October 13, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Many of you here have stated that if heaven exists, you wouldn't want to go there, so if all good things come from God, things like joy, peace, love, kindness, and so on... then hell is simply a place where none of those things exist.
It's a good thing I didn't say that, then.
Also, your conclusion is a non sequitur.
(October 13, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Let's use the sun as an example for God, I think we can all agree that the sun is a good thing, yet imaging you have a group of people calling the sun evil because millions of people are dying of melanoma (even thought they have been provided with a lifetime supply of free sunscreen), and these folks announce that they would rather live on a planet where there's no sun.
Wouldn't that be a horrible existence?
Except the sun didn't create melanoma, and doesn't will it upon non-worshippers. The sun has no will at all.
Neither did God create sin, which IS unbelief, neither is he willing that people sin. Unbelief is a direct result of free will. So if through belief you attain life then if you want to live believe, it's that simple.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9
(October 13, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Your god is alleged to have created Hell, specifically to torment the souls of those who reject him. He holds their souls hostage.
The bible expressly states that hell was created for the Devil and his angels, it was not made for people, you literally have to fight your way into hell.
(October 13, 2017 at 1:14 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: A decision made under duress is by definition not free.
As I mentioned before, the claim of duress falls apart when you observe the amount of people whose lives are totally contrary to what they claim to believe.
Free will remains intact.
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 3:05 pm
Once again, the idiocy of Christianity is laid bare.
God doesn't want people to wind up in hell or (depending on what version of the tripe you swallow) at the very least doesn't want people to be separated from him in the next life.
Yet, he's unwilling to reveal himself to the world so people actually know he's there. He relies on faith and fervor.
Of course, this is a choice. God has apparently decided that free will, and free acceptance of him, is preferable, even though that means untold billions will suffer.
And none of this even remotely answers the obvious question: why does such a powerful entity want the company of lesser, flawed creatures for all eternity anyway?
The whole thing is just moronic in the extreme. That anyone actually thinks it's real boggles the mind.
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 3:15 pm
(October 13, 2017 at 1:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: As I mentioned before, the claim of duress falls apart when you observe the amount of people whose lives are totally contrary to what they claim to believe.
Free will remains intact.
Are you arguing that your god does not know the choices that will be made?
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 3:42 pm
(October 13, 2017 at 3:15 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 1:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: As I mentioned before, the claim of duress falls apart when you observe the amount of people whose lives are totally contrary to what they claim to believe.
Free will remains intact.
Are you arguing that your god does not know the choices that will be made?
Knowing what choice one will make does not equate to making the choice for them.
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RE: Thoughts on Hell?
October 13, 2017 at 3:55 pm
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 3:58 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-but it does obliviate any coherent or meaningful notion that the choice is free. If the future can be known, then you cannot choose otherwise. If you could choose otherwise...then the future cannot be known.
What's more important to you? Our free will or gods omniscience?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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