(October 18, 2017 at 1:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: drfuzzy, all it takes is one time to hear one God's verses as they are meant to be heard, and the falsehood, all of it comes crumbling down and the truth manifest.   But the best way to do that is read Quran. Quran has no wasted space, like my typing a lot of stuff you hate to read.

I am not saying go to Quran believing it is true, I am saying, what can you lose to reflect over it. At the very least, you will know where I am coming from and even if you actual real problems in it's philosophy or contradictions in it's teachings, you can show it.

As for me, I find every single thing not from God that talks about guidance to humans end up not only contradicting itself but contradicting their own thesis regarding guidance and become hypocritical in that regard,  and yet people follow these people and books that contradict themselves at their fundamental essential level of teachings in a clear contradiction.

I find Quran the only non-contradictory book pertaining to guidance. If you find me one book or can write a book better in guidance, or just get a book guiding humans without contradictions,  I will abandon my faith.

But I guarantee you cannot, because a book pertaining to guidance cannot be limiting the potential of a human and hence must be written in a way that guides him constantly through his life. That is nature of something that God alone can write, while leaders appointed God to become just helpers "to understand my word" regarding the founder recitation and explanation of it. At the end, their leadership and authority just come down to that whether spiritually in the unseen realms and kingdom or by their physical words with physical sounds or physical writing.

Verses?  Which verses?  Whose book?  I was raised memorizing a section of the Bible and reciting it every evening before dinner.  That book?  Those verses?  How can you absolutely prove that the Quran is the one right book and all the rest of them are wrong?  Right now there is no reason why I should care.  They are all bullshit made up by men who want to control people.
      Find a better book?  Sure.  Winnie-the-Pooh.  The Harry Potter series.  Star Wars fan fiction - they're all LOADS better than the Bible or the Quran.  Oh wait, they don't claim to "guide humans".  "Guide humans" is control.  But ok.  Any quick Google search will find a decent selection of self help/life coaching/philosophy books written by Ph.D's.  Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, What to Say When You Talk to Yourself by Dr. Shad Helmstetter.  I actually own Man's Search for Meaning.  It's a wonderful book.  Much more inspiring than religious bullshit.
      "a book pertaining to guidance cannot be limiting the potential of a human and hence must be written in a way that guides him constantly through his life. That is nature of something that God alone can write"     ---  God doesn't exist, dipshit.  God has never written a single word, ever.  
     No book on this planet provides or has ever provided proof of god.  In fact, the second you start reading them without the fantasy that it was written by god for your benefit, you will start to see how ignorant and evil the book actually is.  
     Stop wasting your time posting laughable ignorant word-salad bullshit.  Provide concrete proof that your imaginary friend exists - without books and fantasies, or 

Take a deep breathe,

The Koran is not entirely true.

Old books contains errors.

Some good shit maybe too...

But, well we have learnt more since. Hadiths, Talmud, OT, NT, Gitas, Marcus Aurelius. Buddhas too.

(October 18, 2017 at 4:08 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Verses?  Which verses?  Whose book?  I was raised memorizing a section of the Bible and reciting it every evening before dinner.  That book?  Those verses?  How can you absolutely prove that the Quran is the one right book and all the rest of them are wrong?  Right now there is no reason why I should care.  They are all bullshit made up by men who want to control people.
      Find a better book?  Sure.  Winnie-the-Pooh.  The Harry Potter series.  Star Wars fan fiction - they're all LOADS better than the Bible or the Quran.  Oh wait, they don't claim to "guide humans".  "Guide humans" is control.  But ok.  Any quick Google search will find a decent selection of self help/life coaching/philosophy books written by Ph.D's.  Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, What to Say When You Talk to Yourself by Dr. Shad Helmstetter.  I actually own Man's Search for Meaning.  It's a wonderful book.  Much more inspiring than religious bullshit.
      "a book pertaining to guidance cannot be limiting the potential of a human and hence must be written in a way that guides him constantly through his life. That is nature of something that God alone can write"     ---  God doesn't exist, dipshit.  God has never written a single word, ever.  
     No book on this planet provides or has ever provided proof of god.  In fact, the second you start reading them without the fantasy that it was written by god for your benefit, you will start to see how ignorant and evil the book actually is.  
     Stop wasting your time posting laughable ignorant word-salad bullshit.  Provide concrete proof that your imaginary friend exists - without books and fantasies, or 

He's not even quoting the Quran or speaking by its verses. The things he post are all concepts taken from Shiite Hadith books, and a mixture of other sources from the Shiite folklore.

Shiite cult books are something; the Quran is something totally else.
But he doesn't say, so as the Sunni Muslims; that's why the conflict between the two goes forever and ever.

My advice is, don't let the confusion he and other Muslims get to your judgement. Things are way simpler than he and his cult claim; if you stick to the Quran alone at least.

The story is that the design leads to the idea that there's a God; prophets are sent with books and signs from that God to humanity.
Life is a mere test. The real eternal life begins after death. We spent it either in a fiery hell, or a blossomy paradise, depending on our deeds in this life.

You must know this story being a Christian once. Muslims must also believe what goes in parallel identically in the Bible, Quran and Torah.

It's that simple. But making a mountain out of a rock is a liar's dice. It's what debate gymnasts and hustlers do to give themselves the proper space to fool you with mazes of bullshit.

Islam is believing in God, the angels, the  holy books, Judgment day. That's it.
The other concepts we see are parts of books not even related to the main books, books that caused Islam to be a religion of different fighting sects.

He's not speaking Quran.

(October 18, 2017 at 1:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I find Quran the only non-contradictory book pertaining to guidance. If you find me one book or can write a book better in guidance, or just get a book guiding humans without contradictions,  I will abandon my faith.

Yet another religious apologist who worships a book.

(October 18, 2017 at 1:57 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: What is common to all the Muslims that you hate so much is the Quran. Yet you don't find a problem with Quran.

In my case, you have it completely backwards.  I generally do not hate Muslims, but there are some things in the Quran that I consider to be so vile that it makes the book worthless to me.   In particular, I reject and oppose what it has to say about women, LGBT individuals and non-believers.

(October 18, 2017 at 7:29 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: He's not speaking Quran.

He's likely convinced of the same regarding you.  I think that you're both nutters, it wouldn;t matter if one of you, both of you, or neither of you were "speaking quran". 

(October 19, 2017 at 6:34 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(October 18, 2017 at 7:29 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: He's not speaking Quran.

He's likely convinced of the same regarding you.  I think that you're both nutters, it wouldn;t matter if one of you, both of you, or neither of you were "speaking quran". 

Actually; that is the problem if you think about it.
Everybody has the right to believe what they want. But even though his faith is totally different from mine; you find no problem in equalizing me with him in terms of belief.

This syndrome shows itself in the apathy many treat Muslims with: every Muslim is an ISIS affiliate, every Sunni is a Shiite, every Shiite is a Sunni, every me believes the same thing as them. That's why many American soldiers -for example- had no problem shooting Iraqies for fun, and exactly what makes the right wing grow bigger and bigger in Europe: this apathy about what people really believe is the first step in the journey towards slipping.

It's like saying the right is the same as the left, or liberals are the same as conservatives, or communism is the same as capitalism.

It's not good for your health in general.

Investigate before you adapt a pov. Believe me; it's a better practice.

Your faiths aren't totally different...lol, come now....you both worship the same djinn because of the same magic book.  You both rationalize your belief with the same logical fallacies, and you both think that the other is wrong for equally batshit reasons.

Before MK here lost his shit, you had him dead to rights on the batshit scale. If believing inanity were a footrace..you'd have beaten him by a mile. Whatevers happened to him in the interim, all of that is still operative..it;s the foundational support for his increasingly elaborate beliefs. Yours are no less elaborate...you simply go off on a different tangent from the same starting place, albeit with far less ability than MK has previously demonstrated.

But hey, you be you, tell me more about the Great Satan. You might even find that, at least in this, you and MK are in complete agreement.

(October 19, 2017 at 8:39 am)Khemikal Wrote: Your faiths aren't totally different...lol, come now....you both worship the same djinn because of the same magic book.  You both rationalize your belief with the same logical fallacies, and you both think that the other is wrong for equally batshit reasons.

Before MK here lost his shit, you had him dead to rights on the batshit scale.  If believing inanity were a footrace..you'd have beaten him by a mile.  Whatevers happened to him in the interim, all of that is still operative..it;s the foundational support for his increasingly elaborate beliefs.  Yours are no less elaborate...you simply go off on a different tangent from the same starting place, albeit with far less ability than MK has previously demonstrated.

But hey, you be you, tell me more about the Great Satan.  You might even find that, at least in this, you and MK are in complete agreement.

You're proving my point more and more.

It's like a first grade student calling all Asian people "Chinks", or all brown people "Pakies".
AKA stereotyping. After 2001 we got used to it from non-Muslims; so I'm kinda immune.

Our faiths differ to the degree of taking different side in matters of life and death. He didn't lose his shit; he played you and exploded eventually after knowing it's actually useless to convince people here. The forum is all a place for atheists to gather though with allowance of the religious to join too. You are getting bombarded by missionaries from almost all faiths (I saw Christians, Jews, Neo-Nazis, Rightists, Leftists...etc), so it's quite a lovely environment with lots of difference in views.

But stripping me of my advocated faith, and claim that I'm something else which I'm not, deserves a stand of defense from my side.

I don't agree with him. I also don't agree with you or with the opinions of atheists on this site or outside it in terms of belief.
I thought it's quite obvious.

I didn't spam you with posts and call them "seeds" like he did. I respected the rules and tried my full best to stay away from spamming. But hey; I'm just like him: writing spammy posts when my convincing fails, copy-paste walls of text and advertising for other forums for my religious cult.

That's interesting; Rhythm. But don't expect that I expect.

(October 18, 2017 at 3:52 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(October 18, 2017 at 11:45 am)MysticKnight Wrote: 12 of these guides left their legacy, starting from Mohammad down to Hassan Al-Askari.  

-abbreviated because who gives a shit?

So that's a big giant no, then, huh.  You tell us we need guides, the guides then fail to materialize.  What's the point?

This is a good question. The point is what are we supposed to when such a guide doesn't materialize.

I believe the following is what Quran advocates:

"No giving authority to anyone else in that time" which means democratic anarchy, which is the form of "government" or "organizing society affairs" I came to believe during my time as a Deist.

It means no clergy class, but we all must come to learn the religion, teach it to others what we know and learn from others, through insight, not authority top-down structure.

And this is necessary, because, the Guide will not materialize if his materialization is not beneficial but the opposite to humanity.

So if such a Guide is not present among the people but hidden, we have to ask why?  And the Quran elaborates why.

But what we Shiites have done is do everything Quran and the family of Guidance warned not to do, we given religious authority to fallible people, attributed purity to people without clear proofs from God, and we follow innovations instead of what God has brought down and the elaborated by the Messenger and guarded by those who truly possess the authority from humanity.

---

And the point is, it is saying, we did something wrong when the Guides were present, and it is a time to correct ourselves or further perish, as a test from God.  We have failed the test and until a generation stops following the previous generations in their way of misguidance, we will continue distance ourselves from the Guide and God.