(October 26, 2017 at 12:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is exactly what I've tried to explain in another thread. If there is a God, He can see the big picture... the entire universe and all of time. All we can see is an unbelievably tiny glimpse of a tiny part of it. Saying "well God cant exist because if He did He would do this and wouldnt do that, and it doesn't make sense that He'd do things this way, or allow that other thing to happen." I mean, how would we know? We can't see the big picture. How can we know what would or would not make sense?

Funny thing about this god of yours: His system of morality lines up very well with a very specific group of people thousands of years ago, right down to the tee.  And for as good as everyone claims he is, human beings eventually came up with a superior code of morality without him.  I imagine that a god who can see outside of time and space would be able to come up with a better system of morality than those who 'aren't in the know'.

What would I do?

I'm an atheist, so I'd take everything he says out of context.

Obviously.

The big picture gambit does not work for the simple fact it relies on blind trust

(October 26, 2017 at 5:34 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: What would I do?

I'm an atheist, so I'd take everything he says out of context.

Obviously.

I gotta give it to you. That was a good one.

(October 26, 2017 at 12:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is exactly what I've tried to explain in another thread. If there is a God, He can see the big picture... the entire universe and all of time. All we can see is an unbelievably tiny glimpse of a tiny part of it. Saying "well God cant exist because if He did He would do this and wouldnt do that, and it doesn't make sense that He'd do things this way, or allow that other thing to happen." I mean, how would we know? We can't see the big picture. How can we know what would or would not make sense?

It only makes sense if god is someone who has difficulty communicating on very important matters. One must assume that an all knowing god would know what it would take for people to believe, we are presented with a god who's in love with the world, sent his only son to save us paying (the bible says) a huge price, and then cannot be bothered to communicate that clearly through the ages.

Sure what you say could be true, but then why not apply it to all gods, not matter how ridiculous if it's simply because we cannot comprehend or see the big picture ? Having a god who is exactly the same as no gods is not the best way to communicate.

(October 26, 2017 at 12:42 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(October 26, 2017 at 12:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If there is a God, He can see the big picture... the entire universe and all of time. All we can see is an unbelievably tiny glimpse of a tiny part of it. Saying "well God cant exist because if He did He would do this and wouldnt do that, and it doesn't make sense that He'd do things this way, or allow that other thing to happen." I mean, how would we know? We can't see the big picture. How can we know what would or would not make sense?

This is what I'll never understand. How do you get from the recognition of our own inadequacy to see and know everything -> to the position of knowing that there is something you call God which can do so? There would seem to be lots of room between seeing and knowing more than we can to all, omni- everything? How can any human being know that? Of course you can all agree that the God you all worship is the ultimate, know-everything, mega/omni-most being of beings if you like. But it will always beg the question: how do you know any such thing exists? Well, you don't .. but you've decided to have faith on it.

I don't think xtians are any where near humble enough in the claims you make.

There are several reasons why I believe God exists, which I've talked about on these forums before. I could be wrong, of course, but I am of the strong opinion that He does exist.

What I was saying is that I think it's silly to say "A good God doesn't exist because if He did exist He would do this and that, and the world wouldn't be this way, etc".... because its like, how do we know things aren't as they should be because they make sense in the big picture when we're only experiencing a tiny piece of it?

Not believing in God is understandable. I just don't think what i describe above is a sensible argument against the possibility of a good God.

Umm yes it is . The idea that need to see the whole picture in order to doubt that their is some grand plan is just silly . It almost identical Tim Kelllers  excuse for evil which did not go so well for him. 

Quote:deed, Keller’s reasoning would get every criminal off of every crime. Everyone could say, in every court of law, “Well, just because you can’t think of a reason I was totally justified in doing that, does not allow you to conclude I’m guilty.” And when the jury asked, why they won’t then tell them what their defense is, everyone could say “Hey, it’s way too complicated for you to understand, so I can’t tell you what it is.” This no more works for God than it would work for any criminal whatever. If someone can’t explain any good reason why they committed or permitted a crime, the only rational conclusion is that they are probably guilty of the crime. As for criminals, so for God. Worse for God, really. After all, what are the odds a being that knows everything, doesn’t know how to explain anything?

Indeed, an all-powerful god has far less legitimate recourse to this excuse than actual criminals do. God has vastly fewer excuses than any human ever could. Because a god has vastly fewer limitations and faces virtually no risks in intervening, or in confessing why they can’t. So that a God would ever have such an excuse, much less always have such an excuse (conveniently thousands and thousands and millions and billions of times), is less probable than that any criminal would. And since we obviously know it’s extremely unlikely any random criminal ever has such an excuse, it therefore follows it’s even less likely that God ever has one. And even if by some bizarre improbability he had an excuse, unlike a limited human, a god could always explain himself. It would be immoral not to, and then still expect us to “trust” a murderer had “reasons.” This is again just as true of God, as it would be of any other murderer.

And remember, this isn’t just because God must be permitting countless egregious evils he could easily prevent, and prevent with far less negative effect than the evils themselves (as we prove daily by inventing new ways to do this ourselves, with no help from any gods). Evils he certainly foresees and knows will happen. That’s bad enough. But God is also directly guilty of most of it, in his very planning of the universe. Volcanoes do not need to exist. But God made them, or a universe he knew would make them. Knowing they’d burn millions alive. Explosives, and thus all guns and bombs, do not need to exist. Diseases do not need to exist. Cancer does not need to exist. Fragile bodies, easily killed or mutilated or disabled, do not need to exist. By making a world in which drowning and burning and disease and rape and murder are even possible, fully knowing this would produce countless innocent victims of drowning and burning and disease and rape and murder, God is guilty of drowning and burning and disease and rape and murder.

On top of all that, is this: the observed distribution of natural and human evils is random and capricious. It does not follow any kind of “justice” or deliberate choice of who gets what. The innocent are harmed as readily as the guilty; the guilty escape harm as readily as the innocent. That’s exactly what we expect if there is no god; but highly unlikely if there is. Because it then requires an extremely bizarre system of excuses, so bizarre we can’t even think of what it is, which makes it extremely improbable such a system of excuses even exists—and we have exactly zero evidence any does, plummeting its probability even further. Until there is evidence for those excuses, we can never be warranted in believing they exist. Just as with any murderer on trial who attempted the same excuse. To further explore why the Christian God cannot be defended against this argument, see my entire, brief book, .

So not only is Keller’s defense of evil actually evil, it also doesn’t even work as an explanation of any evil. God is a crap hypothesis. The absence of God, meanwhile, fits the evidence exactly. That is not a coincidence.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12520#evil

(October 26, 2017 at 12:59 pm)Shell B Wrote: Interestingly enough, within the grand scheme of things, little things happen. These smaller events may not be so grand as seeing all of space and time, but they have an impact on the so-called children god supposedly loves so much. There is no big picture that would excuse the rape of infants, cancer in small children, innocents starving to death, women in the bush getting raped with rifles so hard their anuses and vaginas become a single hole, etc. These are all things that indisputably happen on this planet. It would seem your god is ignoring the "little" picture. I think you're a kind and thoughtful person, CL, but dismissing atheist arguments as being simply unable to understand how all-knowing god is is doesn't cut it.

Maybe in the grand scheme of things, free will (which allows people rape/murder) is incredibly important in some way. I can't pretend to know how, but since I'm only living in and seeing a tiny fraction of the entire universe and all of eternity, i concede that i may not understand. And for that reason, I can't rule out the possibility that the goodness that comes from human beings having free will may ultimately outweigh the bad that comes from it.

Though even without free will, there is still suffering in the world, as you pointed out. Diseases, natural disasters, famine, etc. Why does God allow suffering if He loves us so much? Why doesnt He divinely intervene to cure people who are sick or to stop a hurricane? Again, I don't know. But I'm just a little person living for a tiny amount of time in a tiny part of an infinite universe.

Maybe in some crazy way suffering builds compassion, brings out the good in us when we go help? Maybe without knowing suffering we can't fully know joy and happiness? Maybe it's just all in God's plan to let nature take its course and not intervene, and whatever happens and happens, and He knows it will all work itself out in eternity?

I really don't know, I'm just throwing possibilities out there. The point is, considering how small i am and considering the fact that I'm not even remotely close to seeing the entire picture, i cant rule out the possibility of a good God existing simultaneously while bad things happen.

As a Christian personally, it helps to also remember that I believe Jesus, God Himself, suffered a lot too, probably more than anyone ever has or will... and He didn't deserve any of it. I havent suffered nearly as much as many other people do, but during my darkest time there was a particular quote that spoke to me:

"Our tendency in the midst of suffering is to turn on God. To get angry and bitter and shake our fist at the sky and say, "God, you don't know what it's like! You don't understand! You have no idea what I'm going through. You don't have a clue how much this hurts."

The cross is God's way of taking away all of our accusations, excuses, and arguments.

The cross is God taking on flesh and blood and saying, "Me too." - Rob Bell

That's a horrific morality

(October 26, 2017 at 7:53 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 26, 2017 at 12:42 pm)Whateverist Wrote: This is what I'll never understand.  How do you get from the recognition of our own inadequacy to see and know everything -> to the position of knowing that there is something you call God which can do so?  There would seem to be lots of room between seeing and knowing more than we can to all, omni- everything?  How can any human being know that?  Of course you can all agree that the God you all worship is the ultimate, know-everything, mega/omni-most being of beings if you like.  But it will always beg the question: how do you know any such thing exists?  Well, you don't .. but you've decided to have faith on it.

I don't think xtians are any where near humble enough in the claims you make.

There are several reasons why I believe God exists, which I've talked about on these forums before. I could be wrong, of course, but I am of the strong opinion that He does exist.

What I was saying is that I think it's silly to say "A good God doesn't exist because if He did exist He would do this and that, and the world wouldn't be this way,  etc".... because its like, how do we know things aren't as they should be because they make sense in the big picture when we're only experiencing a tiny piece of it?

Not believing in God is understandable. I just don't think what i describe above is a sensible argument against the possibility of a good God.

Yeah, I don't care about the arguments about all the ways God allows people to suffer. Of course, I can't begin to imagine such a thing existing at all so I just don't go on to worry about why He allows evil in the world He is supposed to have created.

I just don't know how you and other believers go from "works in strange and wonderful ways" to limitless knowledge and power and created everything from nothing. I mean wouldn't it be more humble to just say knowledge of God is beyond us and therefore a mystery. You can continue to count your relationship with God as being important but then just admit you don't know just how omni-anything He is -let alone how He came to be or exactly what role He may of had in creation. To my way of thinking that would be true faith, revering God but accepting His mysterious ways as beyond our pay grade.

But I just always feel like I can ask you about these things when they come up without you getting mad or feeling threatened. Glad you're here.