(October 24, 2017 at 12:21 am)BlindedWantsToSee Wrote:

(October 21, 2017 at 11:36 am)Aroura Wrote: The wheat doesn’t chose to participate, and thereby becomes exempt. All beings that cannot understand the OP moral code fall into the second category, so it is no less ne’er morally wrong to harm them.

I guess? I wondered exactly the same when I read the op. Life feeds on life. No getting around it.

It’s a nice idea, but utterly impossible. Tigers eat meat. Even if we wish not to impose ourselves on the tiger, it must impose itself on the water buffaloes. Circle of love from and all that.

You are absolutely right. It is utterly impossible to live in a perfectly righteous way, respecting all forms of life equally, not inflicting suffering on any sentient being, etc, in the environment where we live, and having the needs we have: to eat, to kill foreign enemies, lab rats, insects, pests, bacteria, etc to protect ourselves. For that reason, I say that LIFE (the very nature of our lives) is evil, wrong, hurtful, violent, not good. As living beings that have the nature we have, which we did not choose but which was imposed to us arbitrarily, we have no choice but to do to other living beings things that we would not like others to do to us (evil). But, for every action we take there is an equivalent reaction that comes back and is done to us. This is called karma. What we sow, we reap. We sow evil, and so we reap evil. This is the cause of all human suffering.

You lost me when you got to Karma. Karma is this idea of some sort of inherent fairness, which clearly doesn’t exist. Babies get cancer, narcissists live to a ripe old age, happy and rich.

The reality is harsher. We must try to do our best and reduce net suffering even though there is no guarantee we will be rewarded for it. We must do it because it is right, not because God is watching, or Karma will cause us to reap what we sow, or any other silly notion of systemic reward and/or punishment.

(October 21, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(October 21, 2017 at 11:36 am)Aroura Wrote: The wheat doesn’t chose to participate..., so it is no less ne’er morally wrong to harm them.

Quote:I guess? I wondered exactly the same when I read the op. Life feeds on life. No getting around it....

Most of us call that a "necessary evil", eh...and engaging in necessary evil doesn't justify some evil being thrust upon us in retribution.

I'm sympathetic to the idea of a universal or objective moral code..but if there is one...the OP hasn't even remotely approached it.

I agree, the rules are not fair. What I'm saying is that I think the Righteousness/Justice code I wrote describes the way life actually works: we must commit necessary evils; therefore, we are not living a righteous life; therefore, Justice (in the form of the law of cause and effect or karma) throughout our lives, gives us just retribution for every wrong we've ever done, even if we were not aware that enslaving other life forms (to eat them or for any other reason) was evil, for example.

Justice/fairness = equality for all life. Righteousness means fully adhering to justice. But we have been taught we are superior to other life forms and to other people, and that we have the right to use them, as chattel, to suit whatever (supposedly good) purpose we are trying to accomplish. As a result we transgress the universal laws of righteousness and justice, but we don't feel that we are doing anything wrong, and we do not know why we suffer.

What is happening is, in itself not fair to us, not right, not just. We should not put up with it. It is a sort of evil/sick game The Source/Energy/Consciousness (Whatever the universe is made of) plays. We are the players. I think we are, somehow, the rule makers too (since we are whatever the universe if made of). At some point we must decide we've had enough of this game. Some people like to stay in the game longer than others. That's OK, maybe they are winning. It's OK to stay or to leave, but I would like to make the players aware of the rules so the game is a little more enjoyable for everybody.

(October 24, 2017 at 12:45 am)Khemikal Wrote: Half baked mysticism, and in the process.... a reduction of the terms evil and morality to meaningless.  I doubt you know the cause of your own proximate suffering, let alone all human suffering.

I don't believe this is mysticism. This is physics, the Law of Causality, cause and effect, action and reaction. What I'm saying seems to be mysticism because the effects or reactions that I'm talking about are not immediate. They may take months, or years or decades or lifetimes to manifest. An example of effects that are not seen right away is delayed onset muscle soreness. This is the pain and stiffness felt in muscles several hours to days after unaccustomed or strenuous exercise. The soreness is felt most strongly 24 to 72 hours after the exercise (from Wikipedia). If the delay for the muscle soreness be felt were to become longer, say 6 months, we would not know why the soreness is there. The same would happen if our memories where extremely short. Let's say we forget the exercise we did by the end of the hour, and the next morning we wake up sore. It would seem mysticism to suggest exercise caused it. But it is not mysticism, it is physics! There are a lot of examples of delayed effects: eating junk, smoking, and practicing bad habits of most types. The negative effects on our lives may not be obvious for a long time.

Whoever told you karma was physics was having a little fun with you. No amount of talking about muscle soreness will explain how the wheat exacts it's karmic revenge for having been baked into bread..because it doesn't, and there is no such thing.

(October 25, 2017 at 9:55 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Whoever told you karma was physics was having a little fun with you.  No amount of talking about muscle soreness will explain how the wheat exacts it's karmic revenge for having been baked into bread..because it doesn't, and there is no such thing.

Even if karma is not physics, Causality is. It's the same principle. And you are right, the wheat does not inflict revenge... Life does, because it is set up like a complex row of dominoes that produces a chain reaction. Everything is connected, so everything gets, eventually, affected by every event or action.

I don't think we should be afraid of it or anything like that, but being aware of this principle is good for us.

(October 25, 2017 at 9:55 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Whoever told you karma was physics was having a little fun with you.  No amount of talking about muscle soreness will explain how the wheat exacts it's karmic revenge for having been baked into bread..because it doesn't, and there is no such thing.

By way of being adjacently interesting, there's a little village near to me, the name of which is pronounced "karma" but spelled Caldmore. It has a (deserved) reputation involving physical activities, a little fun (of a negotiable nature) and muscle soreness. Bread is also sold there.

(October 26, 2017 at 8:27 am)BlindedWantsToSee Wrote: Even if karma is not physics, Causality is. It's the same principle.

Not even close.

Quote:And you are right, the wheat does not inflict revenge... Life does, because it is set up like a complex row of dominoes that produces a chain reaction.

Not in any meaningful or coherent sense.  

Quote:Everything is connected, so everything gets, eventually, affected by every event or action.

Useless deepity

Quote:I don't think we should be afraid of it or anything like that, but being aware of this principle is good for us.

Being aware of this principle doesn't seem to have done you any favors.  It's got you thinking that life extracts revenge for the crime of wheatkilling, somehow...because, you know, it's like, all connected and stuff.

(October 26, 2017 at 9:58 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(October 26, 2017 at 8:27 am)BlindedWantsToSee Wrote: Even if karma is not physics, Causality is. It's the same principle.

Not even close.

Quote:And you are right, the wheat does not inflict revenge... Life does, because it is set up like a complex row of dominoes that produces a chain reaction.

Not in any meaningful or coherent sense.  

Quote:Everything is connected, so everything gets, eventually, affected by every event or action.

Useless deepity

Quote:I don't think we should be afraid of it or anything like that, but being aware of this principle is good for us.

Being aware of this principle doesn't seem to have done you any favors.  It's got you thinking that life extracts revenge for the crime of wheatkilling, somehow...because, you know, it's like, all connected and stuff.

My guess is that we'll just have to disagree on these points, but my belief is that human suffering is not random but caused systematically in the way I described.

(October 22, 2017 at 7:35 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(October 22, 2017 at 3:54 pm)BlindedWantsToSee Wrote: I don't believe I'm a victim of others. If a victim, I am a victim of myself, for not observing the part of the Code that indicates that an injustice should not be accepted or put up with by anybody.

Would you like to tell us what injustices you committed, who claimed injustice and what, if any, retribution you received?

Sorry for the delay... I didn't mean to ignore your question; been rather busy. Sure, I will confess my transgressions, the ones I remember.

I have broken rule #1 by not taking full ownership of my own life and allowing others (such as family and society in general [bullies]) to tell me who I am, and what to do with myself, etc. This happened in my youth mostly. I felt the injustice, so it was my own psyche who claimed it. The retribution I received was my own suffering.

I have broken rules #2 and #3 by using others as chattel/property and inflicting pain and/or suffering on others. For example I've killed insects; I've eaten animals in the past, and for now, I have to eat plants to survive. The animals and the plants cannot claim injustice, except in a very subtle way which we may not be able to perceive, but my own conscience tells me that what is done to those living beings so that I can survive is wrong. This does not have to be accepted by anybody else, of course, but I believe it. The retribution: I believe that by disregarding the life and well-being of other living beings to gain benefits for my own life, I open up myself for other living beings to do the same to me. The most common examples would be the bacteria, viruses, cancer cells, parasites, and fungi that try to feed on us, make us sick, and take our lives in a lot of cases. So I would say all the illnesses I've had have been retribution.

The above is not the only way in which I've received retribution. I have bullied others; others have bullied me. I've used others in hurtful ways; others have used me in hurtful ways.  I've enslaved others; and I have been enslaved: by my own nature (by severely limiting me and not allowing me to be and do all I would like to be and do); by society (by making me conform to it or else face the agony of living in complete isolation). In most cases it is my own conscience that tells me that what's going on is not right. In most cases I have been a victim of myself for not putting a stop to the injustice.

I know most people cannot see things the way I do. That's because my vantage point is unique, just like everyone else's vantage point is unique. I write for those who may be going trough similar experiences as me or those who may some somehow are able to understand these principles so that we can help  those that may be hurting, aching, or suffering the most to stop the torture they are living in, whether they are human or animal or any other living being.

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(October 22, 2017 at 5:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote: I do not believe it is possible for us to live an absolutely righteous life for very long.

Then your so called 'Universe Moral Code' is a fraud, or at best a farce.  What is the point of a moral code that cannot be adhered to?


Boru

Well said, that's my point. The rules that would need to be followed to ensure universal peace and a blissful life, where every living being respects the lives and well-being of all other living beings, are impossible to be followed in our reality. Conclusion is: reality is violent, unjust, unfair, wrong, and evil. I claim that all the pain and sorrow each of us feels in our lifetimes is a message telling us this; suffering is a witness that is telling us that there is something very wrong with the very nature of our lives. It should not be this way.

In wealthy countries there is a lot of human suffering, but outside of them, for about 6.5 billion people the human suffering is a lot worse. They keep reproducing themselves having hardly anything to eat; and they love life in their misery. This is crazy to me. I hope I can raise some awareness, for their sake.

By the way, I didn't mean to not reply for so long. Sorry.

Are you under psychiatric care?