(November 2, 2017 at 10:26 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Hedonism is an axiomatic value statement.  It's not the conclusion of an argument, it's the premise.

As premises go, it has problems.  The first is that it's self defeating.  Pleasure seeking may not actually be the best way to secure pleasure.  It often yields misery instead.

Then your non hedonistic values are also just a premise as well.  That all goes back to what I said earlier.  There are those types of situations which we know are true such as the fact that, if I drink poison, that would be lethal to me.  But then there are other types of situations where there is no proving who is right and who is wrong.  These types of situations are where we just argue back and forth and it just gets nowhere.

(November 2, 2017 at 10:30 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Then your non hedonistic values are also just a premise as well. 

Sure, and?

Quote:That all goes back to what I said earlier.  There are those types of situations which we know are true such as the fact that, if I drink poison, that would be lethal to me.  But then there are other types of situations where there is no proving who is right and who is wrong.  These types of situations are where we just argue back and forth and it just gets nowhere.

 -and then there are times when we realize that our premise is self defeating and rush to burn the earth.  "If I can't be right then no one can!"

Your stubborn inability to move beyond a failed argument or flawed point is in no way indicative of the inaccessibility of knowledge in this or any other subject.

(November 2, 2017 at 10:34 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 2, 2017 at 10:30 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Then your non hedonistic values are also just a premise as well. 

Sure, and?

Quote:That all goes back to what I said earlier.  There are those types of situations which we know are true such as the fact that, if I drink poison, that would be lethal to me.  But then there are other types of situations where there is no proving who is right and who is wrong.  These types of situations are where we just argue back and forth and it just gets nowhere.

 -and then there are times when we realize that our premise is self defeating and rush to burn the earth.  "If I can't be right then no one can!"

Your stubborn inability to move beyond a failed argument or flawed point is in no way indicative of the inaccessibility of knowledge in this or any other subject.

It's about the truth though and not just about gaining knowledge.  This type of knowledge would not lead to any sort of realization of truth.  It's just trying on something new and going from there to see how it works for you.  I would definitely see how non hedonistic values work out for me, but they have to be real values for me.  I would pay close attention deep inside and see if they are real values in my life.  After all, I talked about the inner universe being the most vital and precious thing since that is the very source of perceiving value in the first place.

Truth and knowledge are synonyms in the context of a philosophic discussion.  I was trying to express to you that throwing a fit about there being no way to determine truth in response to being shown that your premise is self defeating..and thus, not true...is pointless.  

You employ non hedonistic values every day, instinctively and by conditioning.  That employment gives most of us pleasure, meanwhile - the hedonists paradox tells us that the best way to seek pleasure isn't hedonism.

(November 2, 2017 at 11:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Truth and knowledge are synonyms in the context of a philosophic discussion.  I was trying to express to you that throwing a fit about there being no way to determine truth in response to being shown that your premise is self defeating..and thus, not true...is pointless.  

You employ non hedonistic values every day, instinctively and by conditioning.  That employment gives most of us pleasure, meanwhile - the hedonists paradox tells us that the best way to seek pleasure isn't hedonism.

Even if my worldview created a world where criminals broke into my home and felt positive emotions from torturing me since it was the good thing to do, then that would still be a good thing and I would still not object to my worldview.  Why do I go to such great lengths?  It's because of my personal experience which is so powerful and profound that it literally prevents me from changing this worldview and, as I've explained earlier, it would require a whole new personal experience to change this worldview.  I'm not sure if such a personal experience is out there waiting for me.  But I do keep an open mind.  The very idea of something like that being a good thing might make my worldview and thus, hedonism itself, look blatantly false. 

But I still don't think so because it would be no different than saying that, since needing a heart to live would result in so many people having heart attacks and causing grief to their loved ones, then needing a heart to live would have to be false.  This is an analogy for my worldview which is says that, since needing our positive emotions to judge things as good in our lives would create a world where it is a good thing for criminals to harm others, then needing our positive emotions to judge things as good would have to be false.  As you can see here, we all have needs as human beings.  Just because such needs result in grief, suffering, harm, damage, and chaos in this world does not dismiss such needs as being false.

(November 3, 2017 at 12:52 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Even if my worldview created a world where criminals broke into my home and felt positive emotions from torturing me since it was the good thing to do, then that would still be a good thing and I would still not object to my worldview. 

If different people have different views about good and bad, and all are following what is good for them, then what does this mean? It means the words good and bad are defined locally, not globally. This is an exceptionally poor condition from which to derive a moral system. We need to find those states or ideas which are most commonly held as good, and entrench them as cultural institutions.

"Yeah I raped that girl. But only because I thought it would feel really, really good. And it did!" is not a moral argument that I'd consider worthy of anything but a prison term.

Or if you want, you can say that the majority of people take pleasure in limiting the freedoms of those who take pleasure in rape.

(November 3, 2017 at 2:12 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 3, 2017 at 12:52 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Even if my worldview created a world where criminals broke into my home and felt positive emotions from torturing me since it was the good thing to do, then that would still be a good thing and I would still not object to my worldview. 

If different people have different views about good and bad, and all are following what is good for them, then what does this mean?  It means the words good and bad are defined locally, not globally.  This is an exceptionally poor condition from which to derive a moral system.  We need to find those states or ideas which are most commonly held as good, and entrench them as cultural institutions.

"Yeah I raped that girl.  But only because I thought it would feel really, really good.  And it did!" is not a moral argument that I'd consider worthy of anything but a prison term.

Or if you want, you can say that the majority of people take pleasure in limiting the freedoms of those who take pleasure in rape.

I personally do not believe the moral definition of good and bad exists.  I think it is only the emotional definition of good and bad that exists which would have to mean that it doesn't matter whether you are a criminal raping others and feeling positive emotions from that, if you are the police force feeling positive emotions from putting criminals away, or someone helping others, other living things, and feeling positive emotions from that; all of those things would be considered good according to my worldview.  In other words, according to my view, life is all about how you feel and nothing more.  That is, what feels good is good and what feels bad is bad.  It's as simple as that.  Again, it is often times the most simple solutions which are the real solutions that humanity tends to overlook due to their complicated, intellectual/non emotional based lifestyles and mindsets. 

I think my simple solution to having real good and bad value in one's life is the real solution regardless of how simple, absurd, and harmful such a view is.  Nonetheless, I still choose to conduct myself in a moral fashion even though moral values are not real values in my life.  This is because I am not a stupid, reckless person or a cruel psychopath who harms others to feel positive emotions.  As a matter of fact, I am a very kind, gentle, and respectful person.  If you were to ask my mother, she would tell you.  Again, just because I conduct myself in a moral fashion does not presuppose that moral values are real values in my life.  This is due to all of the reasons I have explained which would be all my arguments supporting my worldview.  This means that life really was all about the happiness, sunshine, and rainbows contrary to what Rocky Balboa says in his famous quote.  There was a certain character in a Rocky movie whose name was Tommy Gun. 

If I recall, he was the boxer who just wanted to be happy and have a fun time taking down opponents.  He couldn't handle being the miserable, beaten down opponent.  But Rocky came along and gave him some encouragement.  He said that life isn't all happiness and that it's not about how hard you hit, but how much of a hit you can take and keep on going.  But that was never any way to live or be an artist at all and it would only be a misconception/delusion to believe otherwise.  Therefore, Tommy Gun really had it right all along.  Life was all about the happiness and the only true warrior is a euphoric and happy warrior.  But Rocky is right about one thing though.  That is, we really do live in a world that is very unfair.  It is not a happy world and there are many factors out there that can either take away our happiness or make us miserable, unhappy people.

Again, this is just the absurdity of life.  It's such a shame life wasn't a blissful utopia for all of us.  That would be the greatest life one could live since it would offer our lives the most profound and greatest bliss and it would have cured illnesses such as depression.  The fact is, we do not need a world which Rocky's quote advocates.  Rather, we need the world that Tommy Gun's notion has advocated all along.  This means that life was all about being happy pandas or Teletubbies, so to speak, rather than being these miserable, beaten down warriors who carry on in lives of despair, misery, and just having to attend to things that make us unhappy such as jobs, taking care of children, etc. 

I think a utopia life would find a work around those things that make us unhappy.  To summarize, I don't think life was ever about being a tough warrior since character strength and toughness can never replace the inner light (positive emotions).  This means that it doesn't matter how weak, pitiful, and cowardly we are as human beings; the only thing that is good is feeling good.  As a matter of fact, I would redefine the terms weak, pitiful, and cowardly to instead mean someone who doesn't have their positive emotions or, at least, very little of them due to depression or any other number of factors.  The inner light is the only true strength in life.  The original definition of those terms focus on character strength as being the source of good and bad value in one's life.  But my definition switches the focus to instead feeling good and feeling bad.

(November 3, 2017 at 12:52 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote:

(November 2, 2017 at 11:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Truth and knowledge are synonyms in the context of a philosophic discussion.  I was trying to express to you that throwing a fit about there being no way to determine truth in response to being shown that your premise is self defeating..and thus, not true...is pointless.  

You employ non hedonistic values every day, instinctively and by conditioning.  That employment gives most of us pleasure, meanwhile - the hedonists paradox tells us that the best way to seek pleasure isn't hedonism.

Even if my worldview created a world where criminals broke into my home and felt positive emotions from torturing me since it was the good thing to do, then that would still be a good thing and I would still not object to my worldview.

It isn't a hedonistic "good" unless -you- enjoy being tortured, lol.  

Quote:  Why do I go to such great lengths?  It's because of my personal experience which is so powerful and profound that it literally prevents me from changing this worldview and, as I've explained earlier, it would require a whole new personal experience to change this worldview.  I'm not sure if such a personal experience is out there waiting for me.  But I do keep an open mind.  The very idea of something like that being a good thing might make my worldview and thus, hedonism itself, look blatantly false. 

It makes your worldview something other than hedonism.

Quote:But I still don't think so because it would be no different than saying that, since needing a heart to live would result in so many people having heart attacks and causing grief to their loved ones, then needing a heart to live would have to be false.  This is an analogy for my worldview which is says that, since needing our positive emotions to judge things as good in our lives would create a world where it is a good thing for criminals to harm others, then needing our positive emotions to judge things as good would have to be false.  As you can see here, we all have needs as human beings.  Just because such needs result in grief, suffering, harm, damage, and chaos in this world does not dismiss such needs as being false.

I can dismiss "such needs"  as "good" from a hedonistic point of view.

(November 3, 2017 at 7:50 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 3, 2017 at 12:52 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Even if my worldview created a world where criminals broke into my home and felt positive emotions from torturing me since it was the good thing to do, then that would still be a good thing and I would still not object to my worldview.

It isn't a hedonistic "good" unless -you- enjoy being tortured, lol.  

Quote:  Why do I go to such great lengths?  It's because of my personal experience which is so powerful and profound that it literally prevents me from changing this worldview and, as I've explained earlier, it would require a whole new personal experience to change this worldview.  I'm not sure if such a personal experience is out there waiting for me.  But I do keep an open mind.  The very idea of something like that being a good thing might make my worldview and thus, hedonism itself, look blatantly false. 

It makes your worldview something other than hedonism.

Quote:But I still don't think so because it would be no different than saying that, since needing a heart to live would result in so many people having heart attacks and causing grief to their loved ones, then needing a heart to live would have to be false.  This is an analogy for my worldview which is says that, since needing our positive emotions to judge things as good in our lives would create a world where it is a good thing for criminals to harm others, then needing our positive emotions to judge things as good would have to be false.  As you can see here, we all have needs as human beings.  Just because such needs result in grief, suffering, harm, damage, and chaos in this world does not dismiss such needs as being false.

I can dismiss "such needs"  as "good" from a hedonistic point of view.

I respect your views, but let me share more of mine.  These are some new and intriguing insights:

We Are Wired To Be Hedonists:  Most of us as human beings are hardwired to seek pleasure and to avoid pain.  I think there is much truth to this wiring.  This is our natural wiring and, from my perspective, anything that goes outside and beyond this wiring cannot be of any real good or bad value to our lives.  In other words, this is what life was meant to be.  The real good value in our lives was truly meant to come about through being happy and enjoying our lives.  I think this is profoundly spiritual and the spiritual version of my worldview would be called "Spiritual Hedonism" or "New Age Hedonism" as I've explained earlier.  But let me point out something here.  According to new age spiritual beliefs, we are hedonists because our divine and spiritual nature as human beings is eternal bliss.

When we are souls up in the higher, heavenly realms, we are blissful and this is our true home.  We are connected to our inner spiritual nature as blissful souls and that is why we are hedonists.  Furthermore, I, as well as many other people, are also wired to want to live forever since we are wired for survival.  You hear this all the time.  You hear people say all the time that they never wish to die and that that they wish to live the eternal blissful afterlife of their dreams.  I think this yearning to live forever, coupled with our hedonistic yearnings, could definitely have religious/spiritual implications.  This could really mean that we are eternal blissful souls connected to our divine nature as eternal and blissful beings. 

If this really is the case, then this is who we are meant to be and any non hedonistic value system that does not adhere to this can simply be tossed and thrown out the window since it is a value system that would not give our lives any real value.  One last thing here.  The bliss that people who have heavenly near death experiences report and the negative emotions that people who have hellish near death experiences report sort of symbolizes something here.  As long as we are happy and enjoying our lives here on Earth, then we are living a paradise here on Earth and, as long as we are living a life of misery, despair, hate, etc., then we are living a hellish life here on Earth.  I mentioned earlier that our brains are transceivers.  So, perhaps our brains pick up on the heavenly divine energy from the higher, heavenly realms which creates a mental paradise for us here on Earth and perhaps our brains also pick up on negative energy from the lower realms which creates a mental hell for us here on Earth. 

The Eternal Super Sonic Form Metaphor:  We are like sacred monks who should seek the inner light and avoid the inner darkness. We should subdue the inner darkness out of our lives and become beings of light.  It is through becoming beings of light that we become transcended beings. The more of this inner light we have, the more we shine as beings of light and the more transcended we are. Unfortunately, we can only achieve moments of intense transcendence for brief periods just like how the character Sonic the Hedgehog can only achieve the Super Sonic form for a brief period. Once the euphoria wears off, then we are back into our normal state just like how Super Sonic would transform back to his normal form. But there is another form of Sonic known as Dark Sonic.

This form symbolizes the negative emotions. Sonic's normal, blue form symbolizes us being in a normal, stable, good mood. But having no emotions would be a gray form of Sonic which would just be a bland and dull state.  Super Sonic is like a god who is able to perceive the good value, beauty, joy, and love of this universe on a god-like level. He is seeing these values through the eyes of god, so to speak. In his normal, blue form, he is just perceiving good values on a constant and stable level since that is Sonic's normal, healthy state. Dark Sonic would, of course, be perceiving horrible values and the gray Sonic would not be seeing any real values at all. One last thing here. My definition of a transcended being and having value in your life might seem too simple. But, again, it is often times the most simple solutions humanity tends to overlook which are the real solutions.

For example, there are many religious believers out there who believe in false ideas such as the idea that the only valuable life would be bearing our cross for Jesus and living a life of tedious obedience to doctrines. Meanwhile, the atheist would define the value of his life as something such as an easy going life all the while being happy and enjoying video games. Sure, it is a very simple solution. But it is the real solution. The atheist knows to not waste his time with these false doctrines just as how I am well aware that I should not waste my time with these false, non hedonistic values. However, I am open minded towards the possibility that I am wrong and that my life can somehow have a whole new sense of value independent of my emotions. But I'm just not sure this is possible. 

Lastly, the only greatest life I could live would be one where I am like Super Sonic 24/7 rather than the blue Sonic 24/7 only achieving brief moments of being Super Sonic. The eternal Super Sonic form would represent Sonic's true divine nature as an eternal blissful soul. Sonic, in his normal form, cannot stand being the gray form or the dark form. Even though achieving the Super Sonic form for brief moments here and there is lovely, Sonic really wants to achieve the eternal Super Sonic form. This is an analogy for my life and my personal values. In a secular world, this whole analogy would just be a metaphor which would simply say that I wish I was happy forever which would just be a fantasy.  But I think that my whole Sonic/spiritual analogy works so well and fits like a glove to possibly be a mere fantasy.  Therefore, perhaps I really am a divine soul wishing to achieve my divine and spiritual nature as an eternal blissful being.

Our Brains Would Be Divine Transceivers In A Spiritual Universe:  If we do live in a spiritual universe, then our brains would be transceivers that pick up on divine spiritual energy in this universe or the higher heavens.  It is the light of the cosmos, so to speak.  That light enters our conscious being and puts us into a divine state we call a positive emotion.  It is through our positive emotions that we are able to see the goodness, joy, love, and beauty of this life through the eyes of god rather than just thinking of empty words such as that of a mere biological machine who can only acknowledge words, things, and situations.

If the inner light and inner darkness can take on another form besides our positive and negative emotions, then our brains would act as a different form of reception for the light and darkness.  I have never had this form of reception which means that no other mental state has given my life any real good and bad values besides my positive and negative emotions.  Now, biochemicals would still be involved when it comes to our emotions even if our brains are transceivers.  There is a transceiver model of the brain presented by someone known as Stuart Hameroff.  But, as I said before, there are factors that can take away our inner light just as how there are factors that can prevent a radio from getting a signal.