(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The belief springs from observing what is around the person since birth. That's what leads to the belief that there is a designer.

Is -that- what you think the belief springs from?  Strange, then, that the belief only seems to spring up in believers...despite them observing the same things that anyone else does. Don't you think?

Quote:I believe that it's very egotistical to think humanity can calculate and measure anything. 

IKR, inches are soooo presumptuous!

Quote:Doubting Christianity is one thing; but stats prove that it is Muslims who are growing so much in Europe; not atheists:

Because people from wealthier western nations have been limiting themselves to fewer children and don't think that birth control is for sluts (don;t get me wrong, we have our regressives..but their daughters sneak out to buy rubbers all the same).  Meanwhile, first generation immigrants (and refuges) are all about popping out the heathens.  It's a disparity that vanishes after a few generations...but it;s pretty well understood.  Good thing, though, that it exists, because alot of western civilization is at or below the replacement rate among the native population. There wouldn;t be anyone to flip the burgers and take out the trash, at some point, without an influx of new poor people to oppress.

Double edge sword, ofc, because by immigrating to those nations muslim mothers and fathers are ensuring that..at some point, their own children will be secularized and, eventually, present the same distribution of atheists as the natives. Last I checked, seven generations was the global average. In the US......it was two, tops. Grandparents often find that their children are indistinguishable from other americans...and not recognizable as having been from the country of their own origin beyond any ethnic "look".....and even that...fading fast. They lose the language, the culture, the heritage, and the religion. They keep the swarthy good lucks, sometimes.

Apparently, we're better at multiculturalism and assimilation. It's ironic that the product of that is fast generational conformity, but we've never seen a good thing we didn't have eyes to take for our own...so, I guess that might account for it.

Dear Atlas,

Not only do believers prefer God over themselves, they prefer the Prophet over themselves and give him more right than themselves.

God knows humans have chosen to Worship the Taghut and all that stems from the love of the false I, so humans have become centered around themselves, rather than God and the universe, which is greater than just us humans as it encompasses all things and includes us.

It uses their selfishness to get them out their selfishness, so it says, there is no real loss of preferring God and the Messenger over yourself only gain, there is only benefit of preferring them and journeying to them, and accepting the favor of God through his chosen ones.

However, as we begin to realize our love of self over God, we naturally realize by our minds that while intellectually we acknowledge one God, our hearts are polytheistic, and the function of the mind dies in the grave for a period, but the heart organs remain. And when realize we are evil, we are to be distressed and put our hope God will remove the evil.

When we truly believe God is more worthy of our love then everything such that everything pales to God and God's highest likeness in the heavens and earth is but a means to him, and his names are but a means to him, and the chosen ones are but Worships of God that he has favored, then God will guide our hearts.

If we seek to interpret and use Quran not as a means of helping God or journeying to God, then we are neither emigrants from the shadows to the light neither are we helpers of God, but we are the hypocrites, the lowest people of fire.

God knows people do this to his revelations, so as these people are little concerned with God, he threatens them to wake up, and to let go of their egoistic and dark selfish motives to God's book.

The family of the reminder know the Quran best, and they are streams from God to pay attention to and centre our attention to.

I don't know what will make you see Ali in Quran past what I have said.

I don't know what better to explain the religion is a creed of love than how God has explained it. 

Quran says to humans to Worship God to have Taqwa in Suratal Baqara but elsewhere says, remembrance of God is greater than staying away from evil itself, and else where says guard/fear regarding God so that you maybe grateful.

Gratitude is love, you can't appreciate and praise without love, and it is the highest form of love.

Not only is being grateful the purpose of it all, it is the only way to see the praiseworthy being, as praiseworthy.

It is what values and appreciates God's Kindness and love.

And the wage the Prophet asked was regarding his near kin (42:23). It is the choice of every human to accept these gifts from God and show gratitude for the message of the Messenger, or turn ungrateful to God's favour.

And the path of God and chosen ones cannot be separated, never has been and never will be. 

God could of just sent a book from the sky without interpreter but he did not.  And Moses prayed for Aaron so that people may understand his word for a knot is on tongue due the propaganda of the people he was being sent to, and knew no matter how clear his words and God's words, the truth can be distorted after him.

And in that lies the wisdom of succession, it is but to make us understand through reflection over words that properly interpret God's book and to see that God book is truly an explaination of all things pertaining to guidance of humanity, not limiting to our understanding but seeking to uncover the Sunnah of the Prophet through it, and getting rid of the fabrications regarding the Sunnah of our Prophet.

May God bless you.

(November 7, 2017 at 1:02 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The belief springs from observing what is around the person since birth. That's what leads to the belief that there is a designer.

Is -that- what you think the belief springs from?  Strange, then, that the belief only seems to spring up in believers...despite them observing the same things that anyone else does.  Don't you think?

"Believers" are not a different race of creatures. Many believers were just like you: non believers.

Quote:IKR, inches are soooo presumptuous!

Especially when they try to measure the amount of consciousness !

Quote:Because people from wealthier western nations have been limiting themselves to fewer children and don't think that birth control is for sluts (don;t get me wrong, we have our regressives..but their daughters sneak out to buy rubbers all the same).  Meanwhile, first generation immigrants (and refuges) are all about popping out the heathens.  It's a disparity that vanishes after a few generations...but it;s pretty well understood.  Good thing, though, that it exists, because alot of western civilization is at or below the replacement rate among the native population. There wouldn;t be anyone to flip the burgers and take out the trash, at some point, without an influx of new poor people to oppress.

Double edge sword, ofc, because by immigrating to those nations muslim mothers and fathers are ensuring that..at some point, their own children will be secularized and, eventually, present the same distribution of atheists as the natives. Last I checked, seven generations was the global average. In the US......it was two, tops. Grandparents often find that their children are indistinguishable from other americans...and not recognizable as having been from the country of their own origin beyond any ethnic "look".....and even that...fading fast. They lose the language, the culture, the heritage, and the religion. They keep the swarthy good lucks, sometimes.

Apparently, we're better at multiculturalism and assimilation. It's ironic that the product of that is fast generational conformity, but we've never seen a good thing we didn't have eyes to take for our own...so, I guess that might account for it.

If every citizen in the west gave it much thought like that; countries like America won't elect people like Bush and Trump as leaders.
What makes westerners facing extinction, is the destruction of natural male/female marriage cycle:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-...statistics

If you count on time to solve problems; I advice you not to do it. Problems tend to get bigger, become more complicated and large, and that is what is happening the west right now.

It's also not immigration that increases the numbers of Muslims:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/201...s-to-islam

---

(November 7, 2017 at 7:54 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Dear Atlas,

Not only do believers prefer God over themselves, they prefer the Prophet over themselves and give him more right than themselves.

God knows humans have chosen to Worship the Taghut and all that stems from the love of the false I, so humans have become centered around themselves, rather than God and the universe, which is greater than just us humans as it encompasses all things and includes us.

It uses their selfishness to get them out their selfishness, so it says, there is no real loss of preferring God and the Messenger over yourself only gain, there is only benefit of preferring them and journeying to them, and accepting the favor of God through his chosen ones.

However, as we begin to realize our love of self over God, we naturally realize by our minds that while intellectually we acknowledge one God, our hearts are polytheistic, and the function of the mind dies in the grave for a period, but the heart organs remain. And when realize we are evil, we are to be distressed and put our hope God will remove the evil.

When we truly believe God is more worthy of our love then everything such that everything pales to God and God's highest likeness in the heavens and earth is but a means to him, and his names are but a means to him, and the chosen ones are but Worships of God that he has favored, then God will guide our hearts.

If we seek to interpret and use Quran not as a means of helping God or journeying to God, then we are neither emigrants from the shadows to the light neither are we helpers of God, but we are the hypocrites, the lowest people of fire.

God knows people do this to his revelations, so as these people are little concerned with God, he threatens them to wake up, and to let go of their egoistic and dark selfish motives to God's book.

The family of the reminder know the Quran best, and they are streams from God to pay attention to and centre our attention to.

I don't know what will make you see Ali in Quran past what I have said.

I don't know what better to explain the religion is a creed of love than how God has explained it. 

Quran says to humans to Worship God to have Taqwa in Suratal Baqara but elsewhere says, remembrance of God is greater than staying away from evil itself, and else where says guard/fear regarding God so that you maybe grateful.

Gratitude is love, you can't appreciate and praise without love, and it is the highest form of love.

Not only is being grateful the purpose of it all, it is the only way to see the praiseworthy being, as praiseworthy.

It is what values and appreciates God's Kindness and love.

And the wage the Prophet asked was regarding his near kin (42:23). It is the choice of every human to accept these gifts from God and show gratitude for the message of the Messenger, or turn ungrateful to God's favour.

And the path of God and chosen ones cannot be separated, never has been and never will be. 

God could of just sent a book from the sky without interpreter but he did not.  And Moses prayed for Aaron so that people may understand his word for a knot is on tongue due the propaganda of the people he was being sent to, and knew no matter how clear his words and God's words, the truth can be distorted after him.

And in that lies the wisdom of succession, it is but to make us understand through reflection over words that properly interpret God's book and to see that God book is truly an explaination of all things pertaining to guidance of humanity, not limiting to our understanding but seeking to uncover the Sunnah of the Prophet through it, and getting rid of the fabrications regarding the Sunnah of our Prophet.

May God bless you.

Dear missionary,

It's been a month I'm asking you to answer this question before talking to me:

Quote: Wrote:Answer any of these.
And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...pid1638653

Quote: Wrote: Wrote: Wrote:

Quote: Wrote: Wrote: Wrote:AtlasS33 said:

I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-

Consider it the key to speak to me. Otherwise; you're a liar who is dodging direct question by writing walls of text to cover up another intention; AKA Taqeya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya#Shia_Islam_view

(November 7, 2017 at 11:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: "Believers" are not a different race of creatures. Many believers were just like you: non believers.

How many people..like me...do you imagine come to faith, lol?  I can tell you how many, if you really want to know.  Precisely none.  People like me wouldn't come to the faith even if there were a god.  That door is closed.

Quote:Especially when they try to measure the amount of consciousness !

Exactly, you can't measure a ghost..... hell, you can't even detect one. 

Quote:If every citizen in the west gave it much thought like that; countries like America won't elect people like Bush and Trump as leaders.

Many of us do.  You know..both those presidents -lost- the pop vote, amigo.  

Quote:What makes westerners facing extinction, is the destruction of natural male/female marriage cycle:

Funny you should mention that..the people who voted for Bush and Trump are -also- pretty sure that homos and fornicators are destroying america.  That and immigrants.  And brown people.  And the poors.  And atheists.  Basically, anyone unlikely to have voted for Bush or Trump......with the exception of the poors, ofc. That's another use for oppressed people in america. Granting you the authority to oppress them.

Quote:If you count on time to solve problems; I advice you not to do it. Problems tend to get bigger, become more complicated and large, and that is what is happening the west right now.

I just told you that we don't...we count on a steady influx of immigrants.  

Quote:It's also not immigration that increases the numbers of Muslims:

Yeah, it is.   Immigrants and the children of immigrants.  Pointing to one silly person who has a holy experience in Iran does not a trend make or account for.  Nor would I...if I wanted to present something to be proud of my religion for...point to Tony Blairs sister-in-law.  Aim higher, is all I'm suggesting.  You guys used to run what was left of the civilized world.  If you've been reduced to recruiting the sisters in law of dodgy politicians...it may be time to pack it in.

(November 7, 2017 at 11:32 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 11:11 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: "Believers" are not a different race of creatures. Many believers were just like you: non believers.

How many people..like me...do you imagine come to faith, lol?  I can tell you how many, if you really want to know.  Precisely none.  People like me wouldn't come to the faith even if there were a god.  That door is closed.
Save

Who said I'm trying to convert you in the first place?

Quote:Many of us do.  You know..both those presidents -lost- the pop vote, amigo. 

Bush won two terms and Trump kicked Hillary's ass!

Quote:Funny you should mention that..the people who voted for Bush and Trump are -also- pretty sure that homos and fornicators are destroying america.  That and immigrants.  And brown people.  And the poors.  And atheists.  Basically, anyone unlikely to have voted for Bush or Trump......with the exception of the poors, ofc. That's another use for oppressed people in america. Granting you the authority to oppress them.

The biggest pervs I saw in my life, were mostly the conservative religious type. I'm not bashing; but let's talk about child rapes carried on by priests. Or let's discuss the amounts of homophobic homos; who have a thing for butts but preach against it.

Usually; when a person lectures me about something, I assume a possibility that maybe he/she is doing what they preach me not to do.

Quote: I just told you that we don't...we count on a steady influx of immigrants. 

What if things changed to the advantage of places like China and Russia, and the west became "old news"; just like what happened to the Ottomans once? and westerners became the immigrants?

Quote:Yeah, it is.   Immigrants and the children of immigrants.  Pointing to one silly person who has a holy experience in Iran does not a trend make or account for.  Nor would I...if I wanted to present something to be proud of my religion for...point to Tony Blairs sister-in-law.  Aim higher, is all I'm suggesting.  You guys used to run what was left of the civilized world.  If you've been reduced to recruiting the sisters in law of dodgy politicians...it may be time to pack it in.

She doesn't need to be like her brother, I won't judge her reasons for converting until I hear her talk.
Not carrying the sins of her brother is all I say.

(November 8, 2017 at 2:50 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Bush won two terms and Trump kicked Hillary's ass!

And fortunately the sick bastard didn't grab her pussy.

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 9:28 am)pocaracas Wrote: The known things I mentioned are not restricted to the seen things.
And I'm not advocating a purely solipsistic view of the world... just one that makes practical sense.

What are the known things you're referring to "in this comment"?
I revised the previous post and found nothing.
"solipsist" is another word I can't seem to understand or find a translation for.

Known things are things that we know to be so: Everything that goes up, must come down, unless it goes up fast enough that it escapes the planet's gravity; you die of lack of oxygen; light moves in straight lines; etc; etc; etc; etc; etc

Solipsism is a philosophical position in which I can only be sure that my mind exists... everything else is only apparently existing... and I can't be sure of it, including you. I'm not sure you exist.... you might be some fabrication of my own mind.
I'm sure you understand why this position leads to zero discussion, as nothing can be known, under it.

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:Yeah... but... the argument from design proposes a designer, a conscious entity responsible for designing what we call Nature.
The cause and effect from Science only considers causes and effects we can measure. If we can't measure, science can make educated guesses, but they only become accepted when they actually get measured. No need to hold beliefs in the guesses, but it makes the proponents feel good.
Until recently, scientists were hunting for the Higgs Boson. The theory required its existence. The measurements were not providing it. A few years ago, after a costly upgrade to the LHC, it was found. The theory turned out to be correct.
Had the boson not been found, much of the known particle physics had to be reviewed. As it turned out, the edifice stands. No need to believe that the particle exists, it has been shown to exist and the description of how to achieve the same result can be found in the literature.

The designer has been believed in for ages... still hasn't been found and shown to exist. When should we just give up and say it's not there?

We stop expecting his existence when the design ceases to exist.
That's exactly what I described the argument from design to be: hence what I said:

Quote: I believe what Mohammed said about that cause being "God".

Nature, Gaia, "The Great Engineer", God, Krishna...etc are all names for the same conclusion across civilizations.
Logic says that science is only valid in our bubble of existence. Outside of this bubble, science has no meaning.

Why would science have no meaning "outside our bubble of existence"?
Science concerns itself with reality. Just because our current measuring devices can only probe so far, does that mean that future devices can't probe further?
If a god is real, then it should be measurable, somehow.

All those names are not the same.
Nature is understood to be the unguided way things just are.
Gaia, if my Captain Planet watching days are representative of the real myth, is just the spirit of the Earth... it's just an anthropomorphism of the planet Earth itself.... anthropomorphizing, something humans are very fond of doing!

The great engineer, God or Krishna may be similar representations of the same concept. Still, the question remains, how did that concept appear in human minds? If it comes as a potential explanation of a perplexing question, then it is no better than wishful thinking.

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:If some people say one thing and others say a different thing, then none of you know what you're talking about. Case pretty much not closed.

Then what is the use of logic, investigations, and all the hassle the UN and Law-Enforcement agencies give us?
Criminals always say they are innocent, unlike the prosecution attorney.

Criminals would be lying, then, no? And they'd be very aware of it, too.
Not exactly the same sort of claims we're considering here, are they?

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:I'm not here to discuss things written in books. I'm here to discuss ideas. You are alluding to the God idea, as the designer of this Universe.
At its most fundamental core, that is what a monotheist god is, right?
An entity from beyond our Universe, from beyond our space-time, which designed and built our Universe.
From the scientific point of view, that is a hypothesis that, if we can somehow measure things beyond our Universe, should be available for scrutiny. What does "beyond our Universe" mean, however... is a question for others...
From present day (and past) perspective, however, the question must be: how would anyone that lived far before the telescope was invented have come to possess any information about what lies beyond the Universe?
You may answer this question with some "spiritual connection" to that entity.... but that then raises the other question of "how".
I may tentatively answer that question with a pre-existing belief within a population that has a propensity to accept the divine as an explanation..... which makes us ask, from where did such propensity come? And one can also tentatively respond with the inability to understand many of the natural events all around the early nomadic humans, but equipped with an inquiring mind, they came up with an out-of-view explanation... which grew... grew into being so important that communities would stay together around that concept, as it gave them hope for their future.... and whoever doubted the concept, was shunned from those communities, drastically diminishing their chances of survival and breeding, weeding out the doubting genes and enhancing the believing genes. Brain complexity and plasticity meant that such weeding out was slow.... too slow... eventually science came into the picture and the few who doubted felt vindicated in some of the new discoveries... and now.... now, doubting is not such a bad thing anymore, for most communities in Europe, at least.

Books are the main medium for ideas to be kept and also presented; it's the way humans copy their personal state of mind through the generations.
The belief springs from observing what is around the person since birth. That's what leads to the belief that there is a designer.

The observations may lead one to consider the existence of a designer, but they are far from providing any certainty on the subject.
Such lack of the most basic certainty should be telling.

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: As for why he stays hidden in person; is given explanations across the different religions worldwide; and it's up to your choice to believe what you want, or disbelief altogether too.

See?... religions, religions, religions.... the religions are man-made hierarchical institutions designed to preserve a particular belief. As questions arise concerning the thing being believed, religions employ their best thinkers and come up with plausible explanations, always within the framework of the belief.
So, as far as I'm concerned, any explanation provided by a religion is useless.
If a god exists and it wants me (and every single human being) to acknowledge its existence, then that god should do its part and not remain hidden for the whole history of mankind. That it does remain hidden and doesn't engage with us so we accept it as part of reality, tells me that either it doesn't care that that we acknowledge its existence, or it doesn't exist. Either way, all religions are wrong - if the god does exist, they are going against its will of not desiring humans to know about it; if it doesn't exist, well... religions are wrong, too!

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I believe that it's very egotistical to think humanity can calculate and measure anything. The further time goes, the more we discover, and learn that so many things are bigger than us. Your brain is so limited in terms of storage. I don't think humans can even measure what God is.

Yes, human brains are limited.... so we extend them with machine brains. Computers are becoming more and more adept at analyzing big data and making sense of everything... consider how far we've come since the 19th century... think of how far we'll be 3 centuries from now...

(November 7, 2017 at 12:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Doubting Christianity is one thing; but stats prove that it is Muslims who are growing so much in Europe; not atheists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion

Quote:What is the fastest growing religion in Europe?

By 2030, Muslims are expected to make up 8% of Europe's population including an estimated 19 million in the EU (3.8%), including 13 million foreign-born Muslim immigrants. Islam is widely considered as the fastest growing religion in Europe due primarily to immigration and above average birth rates.

And in the whole world; actually. It seems like people need something that they didn't find in atheism and Christianity.

In Europe it's growing thanks to immigration... and large family sizes because the majority of those that are born in Europe are children of immigrants. Let the second or third generations settle in and those numbers will stabilize and eventually decline, as the people become a part of the European mentality.
8% of Europe being Muslim doesn't concern me, considering that most are Christian and in a state of not caring much about the religion.... and those falling out of Christianity are joining the ranks of the "none"s - not religiously affiliated, even if some still call themselves spiritual. I saw an estimate, some time ago, that put those nones at 80% of the UK population (even though the official numbers are more like 60% Christian and 25% none). The UK has a population of 65million, 80% of those are some 50 million people (25% are 16 million)... the UK alone can have more non-religious people than all the European Muslims combined. How religious do you think the Germans are? and the Dutch? and the French? and the Swedes? And Italians? and Spaniards? And Czechs?
The Muslims flooding in will integrate into their communities.... if not on the first generation, then maybe at the second generation... or maybe only by the third... but they will very very very likely have integrated fully by the 4th generation. Give them 100 years of living in a culture where their treasured honor and religion are mostly ignored and they too will come to ignore those backward things.

It's so vexing that this thread has gotten many more replies than my unenlightened rants thread!

Knowing "there is only one God" is the start of wisdom and the perfection of wisdom and the foundation of enlightenment.

(November 8, 2017 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Knowing "there is only one God" is the start of wisdom and the perfection of wisdom and the foundation of enlightenment.

Knowing "there is no God" is the start of wisdom and the perfection of wisdom and the foundation of enlightenment.

There.  Fixed that for you.