.
Also, I don't think having schizophrenia means that person is not responsible for anything they do, ever. If they go into some kind of black out episode or manic state and kill someone during that time, then yes, they are innocent for reason of insanity. If they plan for it, premeditate it, try to cover their tracks, etc, that's pretty good indication that they were lucid and competent enough for a guilty verdict.

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(November 21, 2017 at 11:46 am)Aroura Wrote:

(November 21, 2017 at 11:44 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If I thought he couldn't tell right from wrong, I'd say he should have gotten innocent for reason of insanity. I wouldn't think he should be in jail. His guilty sentence with life in prison was just, imo.

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of prison?

Do you think criminally insane people should free to go?

People who are innocent for reason of insanity go to a mental institution until they are deemed by the psychiatrists there that they are no longer a threat to society.

(November 21, 2017 at 11:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: .
Also, I don't think having schizophrenia means that person is not responsible for anything they do, ever. If they go into some kind of black out episode or manic state and kill someone during that time, then yes, they are innocent for reason of insanity. If they plan for it, premeditate it, try to cover their tracks, etc, that's pretty good indication that they were lucid and competent enough for a guilty verdict.

Legally, yeah, but still doesn't exclude the possibility that they may be mentally ill. Is psychopathy, for example, (or ASPD) not ever a mental illness? Is NPD not ever a mental illness?

(November 21, 2017 at 11:52 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(November 21, 2017 at 11:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: .
Also, I don't think having schizophrenia means that person is not responsible for anything they do, ever. If they go into some kind of black out episode or manic state and kill someone during that time, then yes, they are innocent for reason of insanity. If they plan for it, premeditate it, try to cover their tracks, etc, that's pretty good indication that they were lucid and competent enough for a guilty verdict.

Legally, yeah, but still doesn't exclude the possibility that they may be mentally ill. Is psychopathy, for example, (or ASPD) not ever a mental illness? Is NPD not ever a mental illness?

What? I'm not excluding the possibility of mental illness. I'm talking about whether the mental illness was severe enough to deem a person innocent of the crime they commited.

(November 21, 2017 at 11:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: .
Also, I don't think having schizophrenia means that person is not responsible for anything they do, ever. If they go into some kind of black out episode or manic state and kill someone during that time, then yes, they are innocent for reason of insanity. If they plan for it, premeditate it, try to cover their tracks, etc, that's pretty good indication that they were lucid and competent enough for a guilty verdict.

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(November 21, 2017 at 11:46 am)Aroura Wrote: What, in your opinion, is the purpose of prison?

Do you think criminally insane people should free to go?

People who are innocent for reason of insanity go to a mental institution until they are deemed by the psychiatrists there that they are no longer a threat to society.

I do agree he should be in a mental institution.  But I think all criminals should be treated as such, helped until they are no longer a threat.  
Not tossed away like garbage.

Most criminally insane people are never deemed no longer a threat, however.  My mother in law was a nurse at the Oregon state mental hospital for decades.  Sadly, they aren't really treated better (or much differently), from someone in prison, (and Manson did get psychiatric treatment in prison). 


What is your answer to the second question.  What is the purpose of prisons?  And to differentiate for me, can you tell me the purpose of mental institutions?  Do you think they have, ultimately, different purposes?

You said you think he belonged in prison, despite his psychiatric diagnosis.  Have you ever seen him?

(November 21, 2017 at 11:56 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 21, 2017 at 11:52 am)Grandizer Wrote: Legally, yeah, but still doesn't exclude the possibility that they may be mentally ill. Is psychopathy, for example, (or ASPD) not ever a mental illness? Is NPD not ever a mental illness?

What? I'm not excluding the possibility of mental illness. I'm talking about whether the mental illness was severe enough to deem a person innocent of the crime they commited.

What makes ASPD or NPD a mental illness then? Both are partly characterized by lack of empathy (and lack of conscience in the case of psychopathy), which indicates there is an important element that is absent in moral thinking, and that absence may be a reason for why some people do horrendous stuff, even when they plan the act in a calculating matter. Just because they know how/when/where to kill or whatever, doesn't mean they morally know what they're doing.

His followers were all sane, though, and seemed to be aware that what they did was wrong, including showing remorse later.
All the same, they somehow got into this cult and committed murder...just because a crazy guy told them to.

(November 21, 2017 at 12:05 pm)Aroura Wrote: His followers were all sane, though, and seemed to be aware that what they did was wrong, including showing remorse later.
All the same, they somehow got into this cult and committed murder...just because a crazy guy told them to.

Yep, it's a nuanced world we live in. People kill for all sorts of reasons, whether mental illness, or brainwashed, or other reason, or combination of reasons.

(November 21, 2017 at 11:56 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 21, 2017 at 11:52 am)Grandizer Wrote: Legally, yeah, but still doesn't exclude the possibility that they may be mentally ill. Is psychopathy, for example, (or ASPD) not ever a mental illness? Is NPD not ever a mental illness?

What? I'm not excluding the possibility of mental illness. I'm talking about whether the mental illness was severe enough to deem a person innocent of the crime they commited.

Yes, the DSM-IV-TR I keep in my room (p. 701-6) says ASPD is, indeed, a mental illness. That said, ASPD is generally accepted to be impossible to treat since it's too hard to tell whether or not a patient is genuinely getting better or just playing their therapist like a fiddle, and it's too likely to be the latter. If one of the diagnoses is ASPD, culpability becomes a meaningless question. As far as psychoogy is concerned, it's impossible to be sure what they'd be like without it, and where the law is concerned, because they just wouldn't give a fuck either way.

I've watched either a dateline or 20/20 (can't remember which) episode before where they showed parts of his interviews.

I'd say prison is for keeping society safe from dangerous criminals that can hurt people, steal from people, etc.

Mental hospital is for treating people with severe mental illness... those that may or may not be a danger to society.

So what happens if someone has a mental illness and has commited a crime? Where do they go?

That depends on whether the mental illness was severe enough to deem that person innocent of the crime they commited. If so, they go to a mental hospital. If not, they go to prison. Why? Because it wasn't the mental illness that forced them to do the things they did. It was their own free choosing. So the mental illness becomes irrelevant in the sense that treating it wont make them not be violent/law breaking people... because their crime is independent from their illness.

I think putting every criminal with a mental illness in a hospital instead of prison may be a nice thought. But I don't think it's either realistic, nor necessary, nor beneficial to society. It's a waste of resources because I don't see it really helping anything, considering these people are criminals independent of their mental illness. I can get behind getting them the necessary mental health care while in prison (psychotic drugs, counselling sessions, etc), but having them all stay at a mental hospital when they are not innocent for reason of insanity? No.

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(November 21, 2017 at 12:02 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(November 21, 2017 at 11:56 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: What? I'm not excluding the possibility of mental illness. I'm talking about whether the mental illness was severe enough to deem a person innocent of the crime they commited.

What makes ASPD or NPD a mental illness then? Both are partly characterized by lack of empathy (and lack of conscience in the case of psychopathy), which indicates there is an important element that is absent in moral thinking, and that absence may be a reason for why some people do horrendous stuff, even when they plan the act in a calculating matter. Just because they know how/when/where to kill or whatever, doesn't mean they morally know what they're doing.

I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing, to be honest. We both agree that Manson shouldn't have gotten an innocent for reason of insanity verdict. If you really thought he had no control over his actions, or that he didn't realize he was doing something wrong, I dont see how you could think it's justifiable to give him a guilty verdict.

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Also, as i said earlier. Psychopaths don't feel empathy and don't have a conscience. But unless there is something else extremely severe going on in their brains, they still know that killing innocent people in their homes is deemed wrong and illegal by society.

(November 21, 2017 at 12:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing, to be honest. We both agree that Manson shouldn't have gotten an innocent for reason of insanity verdict. If you really thought he had no control over his actions, or that he didn't realize he was doing something wrong, I dont see how you could think it's justifiable to give him a guilty verdict.

Well, no one is really 100% guilty of anything if you want to go really deep in thinking about these matters. But I'm fine with letting the law decide what makes one guilty or not, as long as the legal punishment is fair and the purpose of the punishment is to protect society from people that pose a danger to them and not about retribution. And honestly, mental institutions and "civilized" prisons are not really that different from what I have read and heard.

Quote:Also, as i said earlier. Psychopaths don't feel empathy and don't have a conscience. But unless there is something else extremely severe going on in their brains, they still know that killing innocent people in their homes is deemed wrong and illegal by society.

Is deemed wrong. But if they don't really see that it's wrong, then they will have no qualms murdering someone when they believe (erroneously or not) they can get away with it and not get caught.