Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 3:24 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Charles Manson, dead at age 83
#31
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
(November 21, 2017 at 1:07 pm)Grandizer Wrote:
(November 21, 2017 at 12:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing, to be honest. We both agree that Manson shouldn't have gotten an innocent for reason of insanity verdict. If you really thought he had no control over his actions, or that he didn't realize he was doing something wrong, I dont see how you could think it's justifiable to give him a guilty verdict.

Well, no one is really 100% guilty of anything if you want to go really deep in thinking about these matters. But I'm fine with letting the law decide what makes one guilty or not, as long as the legal punishment is fair and the purpose of the punishment is to protect society from people that pose a danger to them and not about retribution. And honestly, mental institutions and "civilized" prisons are not really that different from what I have read and heard.

Quote:Also, as i said earlier. Psychopaths don't feel empathy and don't have a conscience. But unless there is something else extremely severe going on in their brains, they still know that killing innocent people in their homes is deemed wrong and illegal by society.

Is deemed wrong. But if they don't really see that it's wrong, then they will have no qualms murdering someone when they believe (erroneously or not) they can get away with it and not get caught.

Ok? If it's illegal, they ought to "have qualms about it." Unless of course, they don't have qualms about going to prison for life, which is exactly what should happen to people like Manson. Whether or not they think they'll get caught is irrelevant.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
Reply
#32
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
Psychotics don't necessarily see the world as the rest of us see it.
Reply
#33
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
Thank you for your honest answers, CL.

My only thoughts in response at this time is that being told something is wrong does not mean one has the capacity to understand it.  
And
How can any part of a person be independant from another part?  We function as a whole.  Even a minor mental illness will play a part in how someone thinks and behaves.  

Ok, thought not directed at CL (though she's welcome to respond, of course!), is that I'm seeing that he was indeed diagnoses with schizophrenia, and the murders seem to be for completely insane reasons.
Essentially, he ran a death/doomsday cult.  He also thought he was the second coming of Jesus.  I mean, he really seemed to think that.
So, he believed he had killed a black man (drug dealer and black panther) whole hadn't even confronted. This hallucination on his part was a big catalyst for the murders that followed (hence, insanity).
Clearly not in touch with reality.
He believed there was going to be a race war soon.  One that was literally out in the streets full on murdering each other race war, and it was essentially an end of times deal.  He thought blacks would win the race war, and some white people would need to survive to take over from the black people later.
The reason he wanted to commit the murders was to pin it on black people, and tip off the apocalyptic race war.  
Total doomsday, death cult stuff.

All of this was in his head, none of it was real.  He was insane, and charismatic enough to convince others of his insane notions.
Plus drugs.  Some do make mental illnesses much, much worse.

What s really odd is thinking about how this relates to the Milgram Experiment.
Essentially, most people will do terrible things, even kill total strangers, if someone with the slightest ounce of authority tells you to.
Think you are one of the few who would be "moral" in such a situation?  Well, statistically, you are probably wrong.  
Particularly if you are female.  Welcome to the messed up world of innocent people committing horrible acts and then being called evil by people never put in that situation!
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
Reply
#34
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
(November 21, 2017 at 1:45 pm)Aroura Wrote: Thank you for your honest answers, CL.

My only thoughts in response at this time is that being told something is wrong does not mean one has the capacity to understand it.  
And
How can any part of a person be independant from another part?  We function as a whole.  Even a minor mental illness will play a part in how someone thinks and behaves.  

Ok, thought not directed at CL (though she's welcome to respond, of course!), is that I'm seeing that he was indeed diagnoses with schizophrenia, and the murders seem to be for completely insane reasons.
Essentially, he ran a death/doomsday cult.  He also thought he was the second coming of Jesus.  I mean, he really seemed to think that.
So, he believed he had killed a black man (drug dealer and black panther) whole hadn't even confronted. This hallucination on his part was a big catalyst for the murders that followed (hence, insanity).
Clearly not in touch with reality.
He believed there was going to be a race war soon.  One that was literally out in the streets full on murdering each other race war, and it was essentially an end of times deal.  He thought blacks would win the race war, and some white people would need to survive to take over from the black people later.
The reason he wanted to commit the murders was to pin it on black people, and tip off the apocalyptic race war.  
Total doomsday, death cult stuff.

All of this was in his head, none of it was real.  He was insane, and charismatic enough to convince others of his insane notions.
Plus drugs.  Some do make mental illnesses much, much worse.

What s really odd is thinking about how this relates to the Milgram Experiment.
Essentially, most people will do terrible things, even kill total strangers, if someone with the slightest ounce of authority tells you to.
Think you are one of the few who would be "moral" in such a situation?  Well, statistically, you are probably wrong.  
Particularly if you are female.  Welcome to the messed up world of innocent people committing horrible acts and then being called evil by people never put in that situation!

I won't say he didn't have some form of mental illness, but my understanding of his history is that he was abused as a kid first off. Secondly he was an aspiring musician who got rejected by a record exec. One of the houses that exec had formerly lived in. So it still seems to me even with mental illness, this had nothing to do in reality about starting a race war, but about being rejected.
Reply
#35
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
Only the good die young......
[Image: dcep7c.jpg]
Reply
#36
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
Quote:Essentially, most people will do terrible things, even kill total strangers, if someone with the slightest ounce of authority tells you to.

That's the basis of every army ever formed, my dear.
Reply
#37
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
(November 21, 2017 at 2:14 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Only the good die young......

Because they had little time to do 'bad'?
Reply
#38
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
Old soldiers never die because young soldiers do all the fighting.
Reply
#39
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
(November 21, 2017 at 1:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(November 21, 2017 at 1:07 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Well, no one is really 100% guilty of anything if you want to go really deep in thinking about these matters. But I'm fine with letting the law decide what makes one guilty or not, as long as the legal punishment is fair and the purpose of the punishment is to protect society from people that pose a danger to them and not about retribution. And honestly, mental institutions and "civilized" prisons are not really that different from what I have read and heard.


Is deemed wrong. But if they don't really see that it's wrong, then they will have no qualms murdering someone when they believe (erroneously or not) they can get away with it and not get caught.

Ok? If it's illegal, they ought to "have qualms about it." Unless of course, they don't have qualms about going to prison for life, which is exactly what should happen to people like Manson. Whether or not they think they'll get caught is irrelevant.

Remember, this was your response I originally responded to:

Quote:Psychopathy and narcissistic peraonality disorder would be my guess. But nothing severe enough that he couldn't understand that what he was doing was wrong and be deemed innocent.

Do you concede now that understanding that something is wrong and being made aware by society that something is deemed wrong are not the same thing? In the latter case, you're told by others something is wrong, but you may or may not get what's so bad about it. In such case, I do think there is a major deficiency then in moral reasoning.
Reply
#40
RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
(November 21, 2017 at 2:19 am)Grandizer Wrote:
(November 21, 2017 at 12:32 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Psychopathy and narcissistic peraonality disorder would be my guess. But nothing severe enough that he couldn't understand that what he was doing was wrong and be deemed innocent.

Do they really understand that what they were doing was wrong? If a person has no conscience, what will make them intuit that this and that is wrong?

(November 21, 2017 at 2:15 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm sure I experienced a glitch in reality like this already happened.  Was he on his deathbed before this?  I was sure he already died once.

The Mandela Effect strikes again.

From what I've read Charles Manson was more psychotic than psychopathic. The two are very different. Charles Manson's murders were incredibly immoral, but from what I have read he was acutely deluded in such a way that he genuinely believed that what he was doing was moral. A true psychopath doesn't give a shit about morality and would only pretend to care about morality so they can more easily manipulate people for their own selfish ends. Psychopaths know they're 'evil' and sadistic but they don't give a shit, and Charles Manson whilst being a disgusting murderer... supposedly really genuinely thought he was doing good.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The Islamic Golden Age WinterHold 8 896 April 30, 2020 at 2:11 pm
Last Post: Mr Greene
  Age of Oblivion - my (hopefully) first full novel. Iroscato 15 2602 August 13, 2015 at 7:05 pm
Last Post: Iroscato
  Craig Charles Aractus 2 1522 March 12, 2015 at 8:07 am
Last Post: Aractus
  The Golden Age of Video. Creed of Heresy 0 1103 September 19, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Last Post: Creed of Heresy
  Ryan Dunn from Jackass died today at age 34 MilesTailsPrower 34 9863 June 24, 2011 at 4:05 pm
Last Post: Faith No More
  Barack Obama On Science And Charles Darwin. leo-rcc 1 1589 February 14, 2009 at 3:13 am
Last Post: Darwinian



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)