(November 24, 2017 at 1:00 pm)Khemikal Wrote: As an occupational therapist, do you ever suggest to your patients that the thing to do when their limbs turn on them just -might- be to hack them off?

What the idiot's an occupational therapist. Where's he from so I can knock it off my visit list!

(November 24, 2017 at 12:45 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote:

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(November 23, 2017 at 9:05 am)Aroura Wrote: I think at this point, I'm hardly a "new guy", but yes, to answer your question about me still posting in here if I can't advertise my channel - I've been able to advertise it in terms of number of posts for at least a week and haven't. So yes, I'm still interested in being around here. With that in mind, tell me about what you do and how you got to this board (yes, including how you came to the point of atheism).

I would go so far as to say that having doubts and leaving a church does not make one an atheist. Just someone having a crisis of faith. I think he's being honest, but total misunderstandings like this is why people assume actual atheists are also simply having a crisis of faith.

I am sure they exist, but I have yet to meet anyone, online or in person, who claims to have gone from religion to atheism and back again. There are a couple of regulars here, even, and when questioned, they admit to confusion, anger and doubt. Never utter and complete reasoned lack of belief.
I do think there are people who are raised without any belief who can be converted, because they didnt reason their way into it, it was just at a default setting.

Anyway, welcome to the OP.
My only question is, why are you here?

I've never quite thought of it as a "crisis of faith", but that's an interesting point. Still, I'm not sure I agree, and here's my reasoning - my experience with people who have a crisis of faith is that it's a shorter experience. This was an experience that lasted at least four years (depending on how you look at my path back to God, there was no one moment for me like there was for some people). And I recently met someone who claimed to be an atheist for two DECADES, whose dad went through the same cycle of Christian-atheist for even longer until literally just about a month before he died. My question to you is if you would consider those longer periods crises of faith or actual atheist periods as they described? Because to me, "crisis of faith" is not being sure if God exists - atheism is being sure God doesn't exist and believing that.

To answer why I'm here - there's a lot of hostility in the world, and much of it doesn't make great sense to me because I come from a very diverse family, politically and religiously. Yes, I understand that family connections are different, but the fact is that we have some extremely liberal democrats in my family who are able to be very loving towards some highly conservative family members in other parts of my family (I firmly fall into neither category, if you were curious). I have friends with whom we don't agree on some very big subjects, and I know it's possible to build bonds with people you don't agree with because people are not their points. So tl;dr, I'm just trying to point out how people are people, and how we should try and get along despite having differences because I know it's possible, and hostility generally doesn't do anyone any good.

I don't think length of time affects if something is a crisis of faith or something else.  I think what the person actually believes, does.
Someone can be angry at God for most of their adult lives, and call themselves an atheist, then have a death bed "conversion", but since they believed in God that whole time, they didn't really ever convert either way, they just had a very long crisis of faith.

This isn't to say it never happens, BTW, just that I think it is much, much rarer than people state.  Also, converting on your death bed just doesn't cut it for me.  Fear of death a VERY strong emotional component.  If someone hopes there is a God when they finally realize they are actually mortal, and the other option is probably to wink out of existence...yeah.  It's not surprising that some people claw for that belief out of desperate fear. It isn't rational, or true, belief.

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I don't think length of time affects if something is a crisis of faith or something else.  I think what the person actually believes, does.
Someone can be angry at God for most of their adult lives, and call themselves an atheist, then have a death bed "conversion", but since they believed in God that whole time, they didn't really ever convert either way, they just had a very long crisis of faith.

This isn't to say it never happens, BTW, just that I think it is much, much rarer than people state.  Also, converting on your death bed just doesn't cut it for me.  Fear of death a VERY strong emotional component.  If someone hopes there is a God when they finally realize they are actually mortal, and the other option is probably to wink out of existence...yeah.  It's not surprising that some people claw for that belief out of desperate fear. It isn't rational, or true, belief.
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That's some good food for thought, thank you for bringing that up. Okay, what do you think about the last point I made - do you agree that you think we should be able to put people before beliefs and care even when we disagree?

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(November 24, 2017 at 3:57 pm)Aroura Wrote: [quote='speedyj1992' pid='1662739' dateline='1511541930']

This isn't to say it never happens, BTW, just that I think it is much, much rarer than people state.  Also, converting on your death bed just doesn't cut it for me.  Fear of death a VERY strong emotional component.  If someone hopes there is a God when they finally realize they are actually mortal, and the other option is probably to wink out of existence...yeah.  It's not surprising that some people claw for that belief out of desperate fear. It isn't rational, or true, belief.

That's some good food for thought, thank you for bringing that up. Okay, what do you think about the last point I made - do you agree that you think we should be able to put people before beliefs and care even when we disagree?

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(November 24, 2017 at 1:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I was actually still commenting on your penchant for destroying something when it turns.  Though, another question arises from your response.

Is there anything..anything at all, in the ot or the nt that you -aren't- ready to make excuses for?  That you think god just flat out got wrong?

Bluntly speaking (and there was another question someone asked that this applies to as well), it doesn't matter whether or not I think it was wrong. God delivers judgment to whom He will deliver judgment to in the way He will deliver judgment. Not for me to question because God knows more about what someone is truly guilty of than we do, which is why we aren't supposed to be judgmental in situations like this (see Matthew 7:1, and on a bit into the rest of the chapter). It's also hard to know when something is the result of God's judgment or sin in the world, which is why I can't stand when some Christians say natural disasters were meant to be judgment for some group of people or another. They have NO way of knowing that and have COMPLETELY missed the point of God being beyond us! Faith in God goes beyond believing in His existence - it means trusting that He's as good as He and the Bible says He is.

Sometimes that means seeing examples of God's judgment and taking a step back from what makes sense to us in the moment, or possibly long-term. Don't get me wrong, I've questioned God's judgment with stuff that you guys have brought up, which I don't think is wrong. What I'm applying more is not immediately saying that God is awful or not real because I don't understand why something happened or because I don't agree with it from my own, HIGHLY limited understanding. Which is really difficult, but also actually very freeing.

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(November 24, 2017 at 2:19 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: Thanks for answering that, speedy. Yes, I'm ''willing'' to hear.

That's very appreciated - there's quite a bit to my story, actually. My parents divorced when I was 5, and my mom ended up taking me to the other side of the country from my dad. I didn't fit in with the kids there (I can't even say I'm the type who goes somewhere and just "fits in"), and I had some pretty severe issues with my mom. I was raised in the Christian Science church, which is neither Christian nor contains any actual science or even pseudoscience. When I rebelled against God because I didn't find within that church or from my mom the answers to why I was in pain, or any comfort beyond vague promises (unfortunately how some Christians respond these days, and I try really hard not to be one of them), I tried to leave. Even though heaven and hell are not considered literal in the CSC (yes, they use the Bible, but it's basically the abridged version with this one woman's ideas, to the point where it's not even really the same book), my mom refused to let me leave it for awhile.

Those next four years were lonely and hard, especially as I worked to switch custody to live with my dad permanently. My mind started to get more entranced with what I saw in the universe, the beauty that I didn't (and still don't) think could be at all accidental. Something about me was still convinced that there was truth in the Bible, even if I wasn't at the point where I was ready to accept the whole thing as truth. So, at 19, I started attending a Christian church, and my life has been transformed for the better.

That was 6 years ago, and I'd love to go more in detail about my journey since then, if you'll hear it.

you were having a tough time so vulnerable*, not thinking was easier, you got fake friends though the cult/clan, endorphins fired, you enjoyed the feeling & here you are

heard it a million times

*common denominator is always this be it divorce, drugs, drink, poverty, illness, low iq or low age

Quote:Bluntly speaking (and there was another question someone asked that this applies to as well), it doesn't matter whether or not I think it was wrong. 

Sure it does.

Quote:God delivers judgment to whom He will deliver judgment to in the way He will deliver judgment.

Sure, super duper powerful..does what he wants the way he wants to.  Don't exactly have to be a god for this..though, most terrestrial despots fit this description nicely...I'm guessing you have an opinion about the things they do? 

Quote:Not for me to question because God knows more about what someone is truly guilty of than we do, which is why we aren't supposed to be judgmental in situations like this (see Matthew 7:1, and on a bit into the rest of the chapter). 

-and all the infants and ducks and mice of the world were -truly- guilty of something?  

Quote:It's also hard to know when something is the result of God's judgment or sin in the world, which is why I can't stand when some Christians say natural disasters were meant to be judgment for some group of people or another. They have NO way of knowing that and have COMPLETELY missed the point of God being beyond us! Faith in God goes beyond believing in His existence - it means trusting that He's as good as He and the Bible says He is. 

That' a difficult sell, you must realize?  Magic book busily exclaims "god is great!" as the smoke of burning flesh reaches the nostrils of the lord on high.  It seems as if whatever you're talking about when you say "trust" isn't so much trust as it is a complete abdication of moral agency and common human decency. If you believe magic book...then you believe he did that horrible shit for the reasons given in magic book. All of it. If you don't...then you don't believe magic book.....kind of a rock and a hard place.

Quote:Sometimes that means seeing examples of God's judgment and taking a step back from what makes sense to us in the moment, or possibly long-term. Don't get me wrong, I've questioned God's judgment with stuff that you guys have brought up, which I don't think is wrong. What I'm applying more is not immediately saying that God is awful or not real because I don't understand why something happened or because I don't agree with it from my own, HIGHLY limited understanding. Which is really difficult, but also actually very freeing.

O-kay...so, what stuff?  That's what I'm wondering.  Seeing as how you're on-board with the deeply disturbing temper tantrums..are you questioning the poly blend cloth stuff and -not- the ethnic cleansing?

(November 24, 2017 at 12:45 pm)speedyj1992 Wrote: Bluntly speaking (and there was another question someone asked that this applies to as well), it doesn't matter whether or not I think it was wrong. God delivers judgment to whom He will deliver judgment to in the way He will deliver judgment. Not for me to question because God knows more about what someone is truly guilty of than we do, which is why we aren't supposed to be judgmental in situations like this (see Matthew 7:1, and on a bit into the rest of the chapter). It's also hard to know when something is the result of God's judgment or sin in the world, which is why I can't stand when some Christians say natural disasters were meant to be judgment for some group of people or another. They have NO way of knowing that and have COMPLETELY missed the point of God being beyond us! Faith in God goes beyond believing in His existence - it means trusting that He's as good as He and the Bible says He is.

I see. So you are a true believer in and have total faith in the bible. That should serve you well unless the mystery of mystery turns out to be completely unrelated. Hey, we all get a chance at guessing right. Good luck!

Quote:Those next four years were lonely and hard, especially as I worked to switch custody to live with my dad permanently. My mind started to get more entranced with what I saw in the universe, the beauty that I didn't (and still don't) think could be at all accidental. Something about me was still convinced that there was truth in the Bible, even if I wasn't at the point where I was ready to accept the whole thing as truth. So, at 19, I started attending a Christian church, and my life has been transformed for the better.

It doesn't matter what form of universe you live in, depending on your outlook, you are bound to see it as beautiful because in a vast world like our universe, you will see a lot of things that you will subjectively find beautiful (or be evolutionarily conditioned to view as beautiful). This perception of beauty does not logically lead to the conclusion that God must exist.

(November 26, 2017 at 3:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: ...and all the infants and ducks and mice of the world were -truly- guilty of something?...

Anchovies. Don't forget the anchovies and the rest of the fish for that matter. Mix that amount of fresh water with salt water and all the fish are goners. With the possible exception of salmon that is, apparently the smug bastards can live in both fresh and salt water. The bottom feeders on the other hand were well fucked, they were in for an awful shock once they realised there was another factor to the equation. That is; the fludde covered 'all the lands'. Water pressure at a depth of 29,000 ft = 16,000 psi, which I suspect would disrupt their delicate little metabolisms
None were spared.

(November 26, 2017 at 5:26 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

Quote:Those next four years were lonely and hard, especially as I worked to switch custody to live with my dad permanently. My mind started to get more entranced with what I saw in the universe, the beauty that I didn't (and still don't) think could be at all accidental. Something about me was still convinced that there was truth in the Bible, even if I wasn't at the point where I was ready to accept the whole thing as truth. So, at 19, I started attending a Christian church, and my life has been transformed for the better.

It doesn't matter what form of universe you live in, depending on your outlook, you are bound to see it as beautiful because in a vast world like our universe, you will see a lot of things that you will subjectively find beautiful (or be evolutionarily conditioned to view as beautiful). This perception of beauty does not logically lead to the conclusion that God must exist.

"Evolutionarily conditioned to view as beautiful" - that really stands out me. It sounds a lot like what you're saying (and please tell me if I'm wrong) has an element of design, or at least manipulation that caters to our sense of beauty. Do you consider yourself to be an atheist?

And regarding the perception of beauty not logically leading to the conclusion of God - that's going to get a lot of potentially different answers depending on who you ask. My take is simply that the universe is too beautiful to have been formed completely by itself, even given the premise of billions of years for things to randomly happen. To elaborate on my logic here, I think of it as being impossible to form something beautiful completely by accident from nothing, and an impossible event is impossible no matter how many times you try it (i.e. you will not be able to lift a car completely on your own, no machinery or anything, no matter how many times you try it because your muscles just aren't strong enough).

(November 23, 2017 at 9:05 am)Aroura Wrote: I would go so far as to say that having doubts and leaving a church does not make one an atheist. Just someone having a crisis of faith. I think he's being honest, but total misunderstandings like this is why people assume actual atheists are also simply having a crisis of faith.

Hmm. I guess so far then I've been having a crisis of faith since the womb. Lol.