When you can simply answer "That's how God wanted it," (which religion encourages you to do) then it becomes difficult to have a conversation on moral topics such as Same Sex Marriage.  With religion comes a very stiff, rigid set of morals that are handed down to you (supposedly) from God.  And there's no room for questioning it.    That means ordinarily good people won't be able to look at themselves in the mirror and think "Maybe it's wrong for me to stop couples from getting married just because my god says so.  God has a plan, and God is good."

Of course this all ignores a few things, such as the only source for "God is good" is.. well the bible, and supposedly God inspired that himself, so of course he's going to say he's good.  That doesn't mean he is.  But with the religious, there's no room for such an argument.  His will is all that matters (might makes right).  In which case religious morals are absolutely worthless because if God said "Go rape people" then that would be morally right by that standard.  And people can say "Well, god wouldn't do that" all they want, but once you accept that might makes right, it doesn't matter.

An ever evolving set of morals is much preferable to a rigid set standard.  After all, we gain new information every day.  Now some people will say "Well, god has all the information!"  In which case... you can still point out that God didn't outlaw slavery.  He's got all the information, and couldn't even do that.  He couldn't give women equal rights either.  Or really much of anything.

"Ahh," I hear the religious saying.  "But god tells us to do some things you must agree are good.  Like thou shalt not kill, and help the poor,' to which I say: That's a very black and white way to look at things.  Can a dictator not have good rules?  If Kim Jong Un outlaws murder and suddenly starts helping the poor, that doesn't really make him a good person.  Many civilizations before the hebrews, and many afterward had rules like 'thou shalt not kill' and 'thou shalt not steal'.  

When we allow our morals to evolve, we accept new information.  And it allows us to treat our fellow human beings better. 

Sometimes I wonder, if there were a humanist god -- how would religious people feel being judged by such a god?  Would they be confident such a god would see them as good and just?  They'll surely believe they are, because they're doing what they think god wants -- and they can, after all, only do what god asks of them.  But as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  I can't help but wonder if such a god were to judge them, how they'd feel about being judged as not a good person because they've followed their rigid code of morals, and allowed themselves to mistreat others when they've seen it as being kind.

That's the divine comedy.  Heaven is full of atheists, hell...True Believers™.

At least in Catholicism, moral theology is a huge thing. "Moral theology" is the in depth explanation of why we believe immoral things are immoral. We have entire books written on the phylosophy of Natural Law. And understanding the why behind our morals is very important in building a well formed conscience, which is also highly encouraged.

I highly doubt many religious people just settle with "it's wrong because my religion says so". Contrary to what seems to be popular opinion, we are human beings with brains and the ability to think just like everyone else here. We are not programmed robots, or brain washed, mentally ill individuals.

And what are those catholic opinions on Natural Law in relation to same sex relationships?

On many, if not most things, religious people indeed do not actually get their morals from their holy book or what their religion teaches, or else the world would be a far, far more violent place. They get their morals the same place we all do, our society.

However:
I think the gay issue is a perfect example of how sometimes religious fold do not think about an issue, but simply go with some version of because their religion told them so. There is no reason to view that behavior as immoral, when using reason, and even Jesus has absolutely nothing bad to say about it, but because it's there in the Old Testament, right next to rules about divorce, tattoos, and wearing mixed fibers, it's for some reason a big no-no, even though the preceding and following rules are largely ignored. So we can see that most are willing to, very reasonably, set aside most of their holy book, realizing that it is in fact irrelevant, while cherry picking out rules that, really, their fellow religious people and leaders tell them to go ahead and still enforce.

Looking back on the 60's, we can see that a lot of Christians were ready and willing to accept black people into society as equals. But many were also using their bibles to attempt to prevent that.

So I would say is that more accurately, religion provides the means for a certain portion of the population, who would fight it anyway I'm sure, but with religion it provides them what they see as the moral and righteous high ground to attempt to stifle moral evolution.

Joods, it goes along with our understanding that human sexuality has 2 functional purposes that go together - to procreate, and to form a mutual bond with the person you have pledged to spend your life with (to help keep you together through the emotional bonding effects of the hormone oxytocin). Healthy, intact families are extremely important to society because they are the best environment to raising the next generation of people, and sexuality is meant to serve that purpose in those 2 ways.

Taken outside of those 2 functions, sex has caused a lot of harm to society. From rape as the absolute worst, to STD's, over population, unwanted/out of wedlock pregnancies, to men and women feeling used.

None of this is to say premarital sex should be illegal. And as I've said before, I'm behind giving gay couples all the same benefits/rights. Seperation of church and state makes sense.

But as far as sexual morality is concerned, thats why we believe it is best left reserved for the bonds of marriage as a mutual self giving act between one man and one woman.

"Because magic book said so" 

Now hold my beer as I equate homosexualiy to rape, std transmission, overpopulation.... and whores whoring and being whored out of wedlock, ignoring the fact that homosexual relationships and sex are as capable of (and just as -incapable of-) creating that same bonding effect..whilst many heterosexual couples are incapable of procreation for a variety of reasons...and that nothing about being a homosexual or in a homosexual relationship renders one incapable of procreation or of participating in a healthy, intact family.

(December 1, 2017 at 8:49 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Joods, it goes along with our understanding that human sexuality has 2 functional purposes that go together - to procreate, and to form a mutual bond with the person you have pledged to spend your life with (to help keep you together through the emotional bonding effects of the hormone oxytocin). Healthy, intact families are extremely important to society because they are the best environment to raising the next generation of people, and sexuality is meant to serve that purpose in those 2 ways.

Taken outside of those 2 functions, sex has caused a lot of harm to society. From rape as the absolute worst, to STD's, over population, unwanted/out of wedlock pregnancies, to men and women feeling used.

None of this is to say premarital sex should be illegal. And as I've said before, I'm behind giving gay couples all the same benefits/rights. Seperation of church and state makes sense.

But as far as sexual morality is concerned, thats why we believe it is best left reserved for the bonds of marriage as a mutual self giving act between one man and one woman.

Got to say if marriage is to be a necessary yoke for heterosexual people who want to have sex, it is good to see the gays required to bear the same burden.  For myself, I'm pro marriage and I speak in favor of it encouragingly to my younger relatives.  But I'm just fine with anyone who declines marriage.  We have straight friends who lived together as a couple for more than thirty years but did not marry until after gay marriage became legal in California.  I'm also madly in favor of childlessness or adoption.

And to clarify, i'm not saying sex outside of the context I described above will always lead to some sort of negative outcome. A lot of people, gay or straight, lead perfectly fine lives not keeping with those moral standards of sexuality. But the reason we think it's immoral is because it is contrary to our understanding of natural law nonetheless, and that is what we base morality off of.

(December 1, 2017 at 8:13 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: At least in Catholicism, moral theology is a huge thing. "Moral theology" is the in depth explanation of why we believe immoral things are immoral. We have entire books written on the phylosophy of Natural Law. And understanding  the why behind our morals is very important in building a well formed conscience, which is also highly encouraged.

I highly doubt many religious people just settle with "it's wrong because my religion says so". Contrary to what seems to be popular opinion, we are human beings with brains and the ability to think just like everyone else here. We are not programmed robots, or brain washed, mentally ill individuals.

Jenny, I think you'd make a great baby sitter but you wont listen to our logic.

Every religion worldwide has it's own motifs of what they think morality is or should be. 

Nobody is saying you are not capable of thinking, what we question, and not just your religion, but all religions, is where humans think morality is coming from. 

Most humans think morality is coming from above or from the spirits of their ancestors and or a divine place of some sort. 

Skeptics say our species behaviors are in us, not in old mythology. 


"Brainwashed" well yea, if you get sold something at birth before you can think like an adult, your brain in a very REAL sense is creating neurological pathways like a pencil to paper. "Programmed" would be a more polite word I guess. But again, nobody is singling you or your sect of Christianity out. Most humans WORLDWIDE get sold the religion of their parents at birth. It doesn't make you a bad person, it is simply a flaw in our species evolution.