Can you please be more concise for those of us like myself who have a poor attention span? Please?

(December 12, 2017 at 5:14 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Emotions Are What Allow Us To Experience The Value:  There was a skeptical neuroscientist I had a discussion with and I wish to point out one thing he said from my book:

Quote:The Emotional Viewpoint allows us to perceive good value, but by itself, it is insufficient to allow us to experience that good value. Let me break it down:

Emotional Viewpoint allows us to perceive good value, but not experience good value. The EVP is the rational analysis of value, simply the logical voice that integrates information about a person, object, idea, or event, then quantifies its value as good, bad, or neutral. But our BEs have their own value judgments. We cannot solely rely on these types of value judgments lest we cause harm and wrongdoing to ourselves and/or others.

Biochemical Emotions allow us to both perceive good value and experience good value. The BEs are the visceral feelings of value, the sensory apparatus by which we interact with a person, object, idea, or even, then quantify its value as good, bad, or neutral.
Does that make sense? This is why either one by itself cannot provide true happiness. Simply thinking, "This has good value," does not allow you to experience its good value. At the same time, experiencing what the BEs decide is good value (without the EVP) can be dangerous to us. We need both "voices."

Our BEs are precious, priceless, and irreplaceable. They are what makes us human.

Now that I have quoted this out to you, positive emotions are what allow us to experience the good values of life and negative emotions are what allow us to experience the bad values of life.  But here's the catch.  In order to see colors, you need to experience them.  If you are not experiencing any colors or if you are not experiencing any physical pain, hunger, or thirst, then you have no real colors or any real physical pain, hunger, or thirst in your life.  It is only during those moments where you experience colors, physical pain, hunger, and thirst that you have colors, physical pain, hunger, and thirst in your life.  In that same sense, as long as you are an unhappy and miserable person who is not experiencing any of the good value, joy, and beauty of this life through your positive emotions, then this means you cannot have any beautiful, joyful, and good moment in your life.  Therefore, this is the very reason why the only way to perceive value in your life is to experience it.  Experiencing the value is literally the most profound and powerful thing.  It is everything to our human existence.  

Since rational value judgments/intellect cannot allow us to experience any value, then this must mean that emotions are truly everything to our lives.  Emotions themselves have to be the only real source of value to our lives.  You should never leave out the experience of the individual since it is the most profound and powerful thing.  To do so would render the individual just focusing on ideas and concepts (i.e. just focusing on his/her rational value judgments) rather than his/her inner experience.  This individual would just be focusing on external things rather than his/her inner experience.  After all, it's what's on the inside that truly counts and matters.  Now, I realize that my view would place no importance whatsoever upon things such as going to a job even if we did not feel up to it, being there for our families even during our unhappy moments, etc.  In other words, my worldview places no importance whatsoever upon the rational/intellectual value judgments.  Nonetheless, I would still force myself to do something that would save my life or the lives of others even if I could not feel up to it since I am not a stupid person.  However, if I had to live most or my entire life like this where I just had to force myself to do things while struggling with a life of depression, then that is no way to live or be an artist.  

I realize that positive emotions are very fleeting things and that there are many factors out there that can take them away, but it is all we got as human beings to make our lives something good and beautiful.  One last thing here.  There is one other thing I stated in my book and I will present it here.  That is, I have had nightmares where I had the most horrendous emotional states unlike anything I could ever experience in my waking life.  The crippled nightmare states being the absolute worst of them all.  These types of nightmares have profoundly impacted me.  But I also had nightmares which consisted only of gruesome imagery, but no negative emotions.  These types of nightmares had no impact whatsoever upon me and I have woken up from them as though they were nothing.  In the former types of nightmares, I was truly experiencing the horror and I was experiencing something truly horrible on a whole new level.  That's why I was profoundly impacted by these types of nightmares.  But I could not experience anything horrible with the latter nightmares which is why they did not impact me. 

If we live in a spiritual universe where god, the soul, paranormal, etc. exist, then I would have been experiencing demonic and horrible spiritual energies or life forces in these nightmares.  Positive emotions would be a heavenly, transcended, beautiful, god-like spiritual energy or life force that I would be experiencing in any blissful dream and negative emotions would be a dark, horrible, and demonic spiritual energy that I would be experiencing in my nightmares.  But in a purely naturalistic universe where there is no god, soul, paranormal, or afterlife, then I would just simply be experiencing something beautiful or something horrible.  Going back to those nightmares I've had, that is the reason why rational and intellectual value judgments themselves are nothing to our lives since they have no impact whatsoever upon us as human beings. 

People who claim that negative emotions have no impact upon them are just people who have power and control over their emotions.  They have power over how they react to them.  However, they are still experiencing the horror, joy, good value, and beauty of this life through these emotions anyway and it still doesn't change the fact that it can only be our emotions that give the real perceived value to our lives.  As for people who claim that rational and intellectual value judgments have had a profound impact upon them as human beings, they are just reacting to them, but they are not actually having any real value in their lives since they are not experiencing any of that value through their intellect.  Intellect sends the emotional signal to our brains and it is through our emotions that we have the real value to our lives.  But intellect independent of our emotions is nothing to our lives.

70 pages and you still don't know what "intrinsic" means. You think you've discovered something about the nature of reality, but really, "good" and "bad" are just words we use for things we like and dislike, and of course liking things comes from the pleasure of interacting with them, and disliking things comes from the displeasure of interacting with them.

Get this, it's really simple. You are confusing the definition of terms with the discovery of properties.

(December 12, 2017 at 10:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 12, 2017 at 5:14 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Emotions Are What Allow Us To Experience The Value:  There was a skeptical neuroscientist I had a discussion with and I wish to point out one thing he said from my book:


Now that I have quoted this out to you, positive emotions are what allow us to experience the good values of life and negative emotions are what allow us to experience the bad values of life.  But here's the catch.  In order to see colors, you need to experience them.  If you are not experiencing any colors or if you are not experiencing any physical pain, hunger, or thirst, then you have no real colors or any real physical pain, hunger, or thirst in your life.  It is only during those moments where you experience colors, physical pain, hunger, and thirst that you have colors, physical pain, hunger, and thirst in your life.  In that same sense, as long as you are an unhappy and miserable person who is not experiencing any of the good value, joy, and beauty of this life through your positive emotions, then this means you cannot have any beautiful, joyful, and good moment in your life.  Therefore, this is the very reason why the only way to perceive value in your life is to experience it.  Experiencing the value is literally the most profound and powerful thing.  It is everything to our human existence.  

Since rational value judgments/intellect cannot allow us to experience any value, then this must mean that emotions are truly everything to our lives.  Emotions themselves have to be the only real source of value to our lives.  You should never leave out the experience of the individual since it is the most profound and powerful thing.  To do so would render the individual just focusing on ideas and concepts (i.e. just focusing on his/her rational value judgments) rather than his/her inner experience.  This individual would just be focusing on external things rather than his/her inner experience.  After all, it's what's on the inside that truly counts and matters.  Now, I realize that my view would place no importance whatsoever upon things such as going to a job even if we did not feel up to it, being there for our families even during our unhappy moments, etc.  In other words, my worldview places no importance whatsoever upon the rational/intellectual value judgments.  Nonetheless, I would still force myself to do something that would save my life or the lives of others even if I could not feel up to it since I am not a stupid person.  However, if I had to live most or my entire life like this where I just had to force myself to do things while struggling with a life of depression, then that is no way to live or be an artist.  

I realize that positive emotions are very fleeting things and that there are many factors out there that can take them away, but it is all we got as human beings to make our lives something good and beautiful.  One last thing here.  There is one other thing I stated in my book and I will present it here.  That is, I have had nightmares where I had the most horrendous emotional states unlike anything I could ever experience in my waking life.  The crippled nightmare states being the absolute worst of them all.  These types of nightmares have profoundly impacted me.  But I also had nightmares which consisted only of gruesome imagery, but no negative emotions.  These types of nightmares had no impact whatsoever upon me and I have woken up from them as though they were nothing.  In the former types of nightmares, I was truly experiencing the horror and I was experiencing something truly horrible on a whole new level.  That's why I was profoundly impacted by these types of nightmares.  But I could not experience anything horrible with the latter nightmares which is why they did not impact me. 

If we live in a spiritual universe where god, the soul, paranormal, etc. exist, then I would have been experiencing demonic and horrible spiritual energies or life forces in these nightmares.  Positive emotions would be a heavenly, transcended, beautiful, god-like spiritual energy or life force that I would be experiencing in any blissful dream and negative emotions would be a dark, horrible, and demonic spiritual energy that I would be experiencing in my nightmares.  But in a purely naturalistic universe where there is no god, soul, paranormal, or afterlife, then I would just simply be experiencing something beautiful or something horrible.  Going back to those nightmares I've had, that is the reason why rational and intellectual value judgments themselves are nothing to our lives since they have no impact whatsoever upon us as human beings. 

People who claim that negative emotions have no impact upon them are just people who have power and control over their emotions.  They have power over how they react to them.  However, they are still experiencing the horror, joy, good value, and beauty of this life through these emotions anyway and it still doesn't change the fact that it can only be our emotions that give the real perceived value to our lives.  As for people who claim that rational and intellectual value judgments have had a profound impact upon them as human beings, they are just reacting to them, but they are not actually having any real value in their lives since they are not experiencing any of that value through their intellect.  Intellect sends the emotional signal to our brains and it is through our emotions that we have the real value to our lives.  But intellect independent of our emotions is nothing to our lives.

70 pages and you still don't know what "intrinsic" means.  You think you've discovered something about the nature of reality, but really, "good" and "bad" are just words we use for things we like and dislike, and of course liking things comes from the pleasure of interacting with them, and disliking things comes from the displeasure of interacting with them.

Get this, it's really simple.  You are confusing the definition of terms with the discovery of properties.

As I said before, there is a version of good and bad that goes beyond words.  It would be the actual emotions themselves.  For example, if you had no knowledge of truth whatsoever and you described that as being knowledge of truth, then that would be false.  Just because you described yourself as having knowledge of truth does not mean you have any real knowledge of truth.  As you can see here, there is a huge difference between the terms and descriptions we use as opposed to the actual things themselves.  There is a descriptor or term we use which would be having knowledge of truth and then there is actual knowledge of truth.  In that same sense, there is the terms good and bad and then there is actual good and bad.

(December 12, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: As I said before, there is a version of good and bad that goes beyond words.  It would be the actual emotions themselves.  For example, if you had no knowledge of truth whatsoever and you described that as being knowledge of truth, then that would be false.  Just because you described yourself as having knowledge of truth does not mean you have any real knowledge of truth.  As you can see here, there is a huge difference between the terms and descriptions we use as opposed to the actual things themselves.  There is a descriptor or term we use which would be having knowledge of truth and then there is actual knowledge of truth.  In that same sense, there is the terms good and bad and then there is actual good and bad.

No, there isn't "actual" good and bad. There are actually things and feelings to which we are averse, and we call those bad, because bad is the word we use for things and feelings which we do not like.

To be more accurate, you must frame it as it actually is: there are feelings to which we are averse. Intrinsic to the human make-up is to avoid some things and seek others.

(December 13, 2017 at 12:38 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 12, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: As I said before, there is a version of good and bad that goes beyond words.  It would be the actual emotions themselves.  For example, if you had no knowledge of truth whatsoever and you described that as being knowledge of truth, then that would be false.  Just because you described yourself as having knowledge of truth does not mean you have any real knowledge of truth.  As you can see here, there is a huge difference between the terms and descriptions we use as opposed to the actual things themselves.  There is a descriptor or term we use which would be having knowledge of truth and then there is actual knowledge of truth.  In that same sense, there is the terms good and bad and then there is actual good and bad.

No, there isn't "actual" good and bad.  There are actually things and feelings to which we are averse, and we call those bad, because bad is the word we use for things and feelings which we do not like.

To be more accurate, you must frame it as it actually is: there are feelings to which we are averse.  Intrinsic to the human make-up is to avoid some things and seek others.

What makes you think that good and bad are not actual things and that they are just mere terms we use?  According to my view, positive emotions are what I metaphorically describe as being the inner light.  That is, they are the experience of pure goodness, joy, and beauty itself.  So, from that perspective, positive emotions would have to be pure goodness, joy, and beauty itself.

(December 13, 2017 at 1:26 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: What makes you think that good and bad are not actual things and that they are just mere terms we use?  According to my view, positive emotions are what I metaphorically describe as being the inner light.  That is, they are the experience of pure goodness, joy, and beauty itself.  So, from that perspective, positive emotions would have to be pure goodness, joy, and beauty itself.

"Good" is a word. It is used to talk about something. We use "good" to talk about those things which we consider pleasurable, productive, or otherwise beneficial to us. You are defining hedonic states as good. IF hedonic states are good, they are intrinsically good, but that's just by your definition. It really doesn't mean anything to say that.

I can also say if babies are good by definition, they are intrinsically good, or anal sex.

"Good" is a word. But the good is not

---

(December 13, 2017 at 8:49 am)bennyboy Wrote:  IF hedonic states are good, they are intrinsically good, but that's just by your definition.  It really doesn't mean anything to say that.

Isn't that the way words always work?

"If neurological states are real, they are real, but that's just by your definition. It doesn't really mean anything to say that neurology is real."

You could say that about anything lol.

We use words to label things in reality that are real. No one can or has to 'prove that their definition is the correct one'.

Even science can't do that.

Oh great. This has been revived. Again.

Let's try to reach 100 pages of word salad.

(December 13, 2017 at 8:49 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 13, 2017 at 1:26 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: What makes you think that good and bad are not actual things and that they are just mere terms we use?  According to my view, positive emotions are what I metaphorically describe as being the inner light.  That is, they are the experience of pure goodness, joy, and beauty itself.  So, from that perspective, positive emotions would have to be pure goodness, joy, and beauty itself.

"Good" is a word. It is used to talk about something. We use "good" to talk about those things which we consider pleasurable, productive, or otherwise beneficial to us. You are defining hedonic states as good. IF hedonic states are good, they are intrinsically good, but that's just by your definition. It really doesn't mean anything to say that.

I can also say if babies are good by definition, they are intrinsically good, or anal sex.

(December 13, 2017 at 8:53 am)Hammy Wrote: "Good" is a word. But the good is not

---

(December 13, 2017 at 8:49 am)bennyboy Wrote:  IF hedonic states are good, they are intrinsically good, but that's just by your definition.  It really doesn't mean anything to say that.

Isn't that the way words always work?

"If neurological states are real, they are real, but that's just by your definition. It doesn't really mean anything to say that neurology is real."

You could say that about anything lol.

We use words to label things in reality that are real. No one can or has to 'prove that their definition is the correct one'.

Even science can't do that.

(December 13, 2017 at 9:28 am)SaStrike Wrote: Oh great. This has been revived. Again.

Let's try to reach 100 pages of word salad.

If my whole entire worldview is word salad, then it's not because I am schizophrenic or psychotic. Word salad is a term which simply means blabber that makes no sense to anybody. People with schizophrenia talk word salad, but I do not have any of the symptoms of schizophrenia. But like I was saying, if my worldview really is word salad, then it would instead be because I have no understanding of life whatsoever. I fill in this lack of understanding with what I personally think is a true and rational understanding of life. Whether my worldview is a true understanding of life or not is something I do not know with 100% certainty. This means that I have only my own personal experience to go by and my own personal views. People are free to agree or disagree with them. But, for me, my own personal experience was something very profound, powerful, and compelling. Anything anybody tries to say to me to change my worldview and enlighten me to what they think is the truth won't work since it just makes no sense to me how a life independent of positive emotions can be any sort of good and beautiful way to live or be an artist.

From my perspective, positive emotions are everything to our human existence. They are the very source of all profound joys, good values, and beauty to our lives and artistic endeavors. I mean, I can understand intellectually why one would think that being there for his family during his worst moments of despair would be something good and beautiful, but I do not understand this in terms of personal experience. I, myself, have never experienced any real joy, good value, or beauty independent of my positive emotions and I have never experienced any real horror, tragedy, despair, bad value, etc. in my life independent of my negative emotions. With all of this being said, I wish to fully share and express my worldview anyway so that others know my personal values and how I think. Furthermore, if my worldview really is true and others become enlightened to this truth, then others would finally understand and sympathize with my personal experience and values rather than scoffing at them as being some sort of nonsense, rejecting them, and denying and dismissing my personal experience.