Emotions are intrinsically good and bad

[brewer]

If that's not an example of of delusional behavior/thinking I don't know what is.

TBH, dipping in to this thread as a noob, I have no clue what this is.

No worries. Trust me, it's not worth trying to figure out. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

[Edwardo Piet]

TBH, dipping in to this thread as a noob, I have no clue what this is.

No worries. Trust me, it's not worth trying to figure out. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Yeah perhaps TD is better off not understanding.

But, more importantly, I think we're simply wasting energy by trying to change her mind.

That doesn't just apply to TD though.

I am really starting to feel the way Sam Harris seems to feel in this quote. Bold text added by me:

I want to begin by reminding our readers—and myself—that exchanges like this aren’t necessarily pointless. Perhaps you need no encouragement on that front, but I’m afraid I do. In recent years, I have spent so much time debating scientists, philosophers, and other scholars that I’ve begun to doubt whether any smart person retains the ability to change his mind. This is one of the great scandals of intellectual life: The virtues of rational discourse are everywhere espoused, and yet witnessing someone relinquish a cherished opinion in real time is about as common as seeing a supernova explode overhead. The perpetual stalemate one encounters in public debates is annoying because it is so clearly the product of motivated reasoning, self-deception, and other failures of rationality—and yet we’ve grown to expect it on every topic, no matter how intelligent and well-intentioned the participants. I hope you and I don’t give our readers further cause for cynicism on this front.

I think Sam Harris's observation here is highly accurate. I also think it applies to him as well, of course.

[Abaddon_ire]

TBH, dipping in to this thread as a noob, I have no clue what this is.

No worries. Trust me, it's not worth trying to figure out. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

600 and how many posts? I think I might take your advice.

[Transcended Dimensions]

When I tell others that my personal experience was something profound and powerful, they would tell me that I am defining those terms wrong and that the real profound and powerful values/experiences come about in our lives through the rational values rather than these emotional values.  I can assure you that my emotional states were truly profound and powerful states of mind for me.  Others would dismiss my emotional values as nonexistent and they would dismiss my personal experience as a matter of me mistakenly calling it a profound and powerful experience when it never was.  But I am doing the same thing when I say that these rational based values that others have are nonexistent and that they are instead the ones mistakenly calling their rational based values profound and powerful states of mind when they never were.  So, who is right and who is wrong here?  I think this could just be one of those agree to disagree scenarios where neither claim can be proven.  Actually, I find it sort of interesting.  It would be no different than a situation where, in one universe or reality, we have the good witch and, in the other universe or reality, we have the bad witch. 

You see these sorts of parallel realities presented in artwork, anime, video games, and movies. This is sort of the same thing going on here because I am in my own universe/reality where I live by emotional values and others are in their own universe where they live by rational values.  I think the rational values do not exist and cannot bring our lives any real profound and powerful state of mind and neither do others think that my emotional based values are any real values and that they cannot be any profound and powerful state of mind either.  I think that the rational based values are nothing but empty words and others would think that biochemical emotions are nothing more than empty and meaningless pleasant and unpleasant states.  But, as I explain later on, these emotional based values really do exist as pointed out by the neuroscientist/skeptic.  As for what I said in regards to me living in another reality, again, this is just a metaphor here and I do not literally mean that I live in another universe or reality.

One last thing here.  Going back to my parallel universe analogy, I would view my biochemical emotions as being the real emotions and our rational value judgments not being any real emotions while others would view their rational value judgments as being real emotions and the biochemical emotions as not being any real emotions.  Perhaps it is the case that, for me, my biochemical emotions are the real emotions and, thus, real value judgments in my life that give my life real value while the rational value judgments for these other people are real emotions and, thus, real value judgments that give real value to their lives.  Maybe our emotions develop.  That all goes back to what I said earlier in regards to the inner light and inner darkness taking on the form of our rational value judgments.  It could be the case that my inner light and inner darkness (which would be my biochemical emotions for now) has not developed and moved onto my rational value judgments to make them real emotions and, thus, real value judgments in my life.  I don't know about this one.

[brewer]

Can you tell us what non biochemical emotions are? Are they non real emotions?

[The Grand Nudger]

Perhaps explain what makes them qualitatively different from other biochemical thoughts, while you're at it. I understand that we put one in one box, and the other in a different box...but I strongly suspect that this is folklore and fairy tale. A product of centuries of inability to see the workings of our own mind.

[Transcended Dimensions]

Perhaps explain what makes them qualitatively different from other biochemical thoughts, while you're at it.  I understand that we put one in one box, and the other in a different box...but I strongly suspect that this is folklore and fairy tale.  A product of centuries of inability to see the workings of our own mind.

The biochemical emotions are forms of motivation (drive).  For example, when you feel sexually aroused, that is a sex drive.  But when you don't feel sexually aroused and having the thought of being sexually aroused cannot put you back into that sexually aroused state, then having the thought of being sexually aroused would just be empty words.  They would not give you any sex drive.  That is why our rational value judgments cannot be any real emotions (drive/motivation) while it can only be our biochemical emotions which are the real emotions (drive/motivation).  The same idea applies to value judgments.  Our rational value judgments are not any real value judgments and it can only be our biochemical emotions which are the real value judgments.  People are mistaking their rational value judgements as being the real emotions and real value judgments when it was really their biochemical emotions all along which were the real emotions and the real value judgments.

[brewer]

[The Grand Nudger]

Perhaps explain what makes them qualitatively different from other biochemical thoughts, while you're at it.  I understand that we put one in one box, and the other in a different box...but I strongly suspect that this is folklore and fairy tale.  A product of centuries of inability to see the workings of our own mind.

The biochemical emotions are forms of motivation (drive).  For example, when you feel sexually aroused, that is a sex drive.  But when you don't feel sexually aroused and having the thought of being sexually aroused cannot put you back into that sexually aroused state, then having the thought of being sexually aroused would just be empty words.  They would not give you any sex drive.  That is why our rational value judgments cannot be any real emotions (drive/motivation) while it can only be our biochemical emotions which are the real emotions (drive/motivation).  The same idea applies to value judgments.  Our rational value judgments are not any real value judgments and it can only be our biochemical emotions which are the real value judgments.  People are mistaking their rational value judgements as being the real emotions and real value judgments when it was really their biochemical emotions all along which were the real emotions and the real value judgments.

So no explanation, then? Wonder of wonders, nuerobiology isn't one of your strong suites.

[Transcended Dimensions]

The biochemical emotions are forms of motivation (drive).  For example, when you feel sexually aroused, that is a sex drive.  But when you don't feel sexually aroused and having the thought of being sexually aroused cannot put you back into that sexually aroused state, then having the thought of being sexually aroused would just be empty words.  They would not give you any sex drive.  That is why our rational value judgments cannot be any real emotions (drive/motivation) while it can only be our biochemical emotions which are the real emotions (drive/motivation).  The same idea applies to value judgments.  Our rational value judgments are not any real value judgments and it can only be our biochemical emotions which are the real value judgments.  People are mistaking their rational value judgements as being the real emotions and real value judgments when it was really their biochemical emotions all along which were the real emotions and the real value judgments.

So no explanation, then?  Wonder of wonders, nuerobiology isn't one of your strong suites.

I know nothing about these subjects.  So, even if there was evidence or something out there that would explain this, I wouldn't be able to find it.  But I am going to share just how profound my positive emotions are for me anyway:


All of these intellectual analysis are just the idea of good and bad things. When you analyze value, then you are only having ideas of value going through your mind. But you are still not actually seeing that value. Here is what seeing value actually means. When you feel a positive emotion, then it is like you are seeing the good value and beauty of things in this world through the eyes of an angel. It is something entirely distinct from rationalizations, intellectualizing, analyzing things, etc. No intellectual faculty can ever replace these profoundly spiritual eyes of an angel that we call a positive emotion. Likewise, seeing the bad value through a negative emotion is like the eyes of pure darkness or that of a disgusting being or demon. What I am saying here is that our positive emotions allow us to perceive good value on a level that transcends intellect. Intellect is nothing more than just thoughts or ideas of things and situations. I will represent this as 3 beings. The first being is Spok from Star Trek who represents intellect, the 2nd being would be a transcended, angelic being from the higher heavens which represents our positive emotions, and the 3rd being would be an inferior, disgusting demon or goblin from the lower realms which represents our negative emotions.

Compared to the disgusting, inferior goblin, Spok would be transcended. But Spok would just be living his life by empty words. However, compared to Spok, the angel would be the transcended being and he would be living his life by the real and absolute good values. Therefore, the goal is to become the angel and not to become Spok or, even worse, the disgusting, inferior goblin or demon. I will also represent this as numbers. The inferior goblin (our negative emotions) would be the negative numbers, Spok (intellect) would be the number zero, and the angel (our positive emotions) would be the positive numbers. Being at the negative stage or the zero stage is no way to live or be an artist. It can only be the positive stage which is the way to live and be an artist. Lastly, I will represent this as the 3 afterlives that are often presented in spiritual and religious beliefs. The 1st would be hell (our negative emotions), the 2nd would be limbo (our intellect), and the 3rd would be heaven (our positive emotions). Heaven is where we all need to be since that is where all the true good value and joy is at. As long as we are the beings of darkness, then we cannot truly see the good values and beauty of things in this universe and as long as we are neither beings of darkness nor beings of light, then we also cannot see these good values. It is only once we become beings of light that we can truly see the beauty and good values in this universe.