(December 6, 2017 at 1:38 pm)Macoleco Wrote: The point is, we are just a couple centuries to put our minds in a computer (maybe even less), and we will die before it happens. Its infuriating. Back in the day we had to accept we would die. Now we have to accept we wont live long enough to have the chance to live indefinitely. It hurts.

Yes, I agree in spirit. I think we might be much closer than two centuries from being capable of putting our minds in a computer (if such a thing turns about to be possible; we don't really know what consciousness is) but it will probably be too late for those of us alive today - and it is indeed infuriating! So close but yet so far!

But there are many possibilities. General Relativity says that the past, present and future all exist in 4-dimensional space-time. One of the cliches of modern science is to never go against Einstein. All that do inevitably go down in flames. General Relativity is as solid as any scientific theory ever proposed. It has withstood > 100 years of efforts to falsify it. And it says there really isn't any death. It says that all of time in this universe exists until the end of the universe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO_Q_f1WgQI

If Einstein was right (and he has a track record of being that) you are not running out of time. There is all the time in the world for your mind to be downloaded to a computer - if anyone in the future cares to do that. That is the biggest question as far as I'm concerned. Will anyone consider you worthy of saving? I can't begin to answer that question.

I won't lay on my deathbed and take much confidence that the laws of General Relativity will guarantee me an afterlife but I'll take some comfort that they MIGHT. There is some hope - at least as much as those who take faith in primitive beliefs based on ancient fairy tales.

(December 16, 2017 at 12:47 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(December 16, 2017 at 12:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: As far as your consciousness is stuck inside your body is obvious that when your body is in trouble also your consciousness will be unable to perform as it should.

However once the consciousness leaves your dead body then she will be free and perform totally different.  
The same happens when you leave your rotting vehicle.

What evidence do you have/line of reasoning do you use to support these claims? We talkin' Descartes here?

1) After millions years that homo sapient exist none has so far produced any evidence that when we die also the consciousness dies.
2) NDEs are clear evidence that when the body dies the consciousness leaves the body and lives on.

(December 16, 2017 at 1:26 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1)  After millions years that homo sapient exist none has so far produced any evidence that when we die also the consciousness dies.  
2) NDEs are clear evidence that when the body dies the consciousness leaves the body and lives on.

First off, let me say that I am agnostic about any sort of afterlife or continued existence after death. Nobody really knows. But oblivion (ie. no consciousness after death) seems to be the most plausible conclusion. Your two arguments do little to budge me from that position.

1. The contents of consciousness are causally reducible to neuronal activity. So that alone gives us some reason to believe that when we, our consciousness also ceases. There may also be a burden of proof issue here. Do I need to prove that it dies? Or do you need to prove that it keeps existing?

2. NDEs are just that. Things that living organisms experience when they are near death. In most cases, it would be unethical to measure brain activity on someone near the brink of death (there are more pressing matters to which physicians must attend) but I did manage to find an article suggesting a possible correlation between EEG readings and NDEs. This suggests that an NDE is something related to activity in the still living brain-- not the experience of a disembodied soul.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/bra...l_surge_in

(December 16, 2017 at 2:01 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(December 16, 2017 at 1:26 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1)  After millions years that homo sapient exist none has so far produced any evidence that when we die also the consciousness dies.  
2) NDEs are clear evidence that when the body dies the consciousness leaves the body and
lives on.

First off, let me say that I am agnostic about any sort of afterlife or continued existence after
death. Nobody really knows. But oblivion (ie. no consciousness after death) seems to be the most plausible conclusion. Your two arguments do little to budge me from that position.




1. The contents of consciousness are causally reducible to neuronal activity. So that alone
gives us some reason to believe that when we, our consciousness also ceases. There may also be a burden of proof issue here. Do I need to prove that it dies? Or do you need to prove that it keeps existing?


2. NDEs are just that. Things that living organisms experience when they are near death. In most cases, it would be unethical to
measure brain activity on someone near the brink of death (there are more pressing matters to which physicians must attend) but I did manage to find an article suggesting a possible correlation between EEG readings and NDEs.
This suggests that an NDE is something related to activity in the still living brain-- not the experience of a disembodied soul.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/brain-
metrics/could_a_final_surge_in

After you smash your car after an accident obviously there is a lot of activity in the smashed car.
The wreck will be very very hot.
Energy waves will travel very very fast from top to bottom from side to side.
There is no question about activities.
Exactly the same applies to a body (brain included).
That doesn’t mean that this wreck of a brain is able to put together an experience so sharp and vivid such as an NDE.
In fact the possibility to be able to do that are next to zero.

(December 16, 2017 at 7:24 pm)Little Rik Wrote: After you smash your car after an accident obviously there is a lot of activity in the smashed car.
The wreck will be very very hot.
Energy waves will travel very very fast from top to bottom from side to side.
There is no question about activities.

Argument from metaphor? You're going to have to do way better than that. The above says nothing which would convince a reasonable person that life continues after death. Even assuming that you have accurately described the energy dynamics involved in a car accident that says nothing to prove that the soul acts in accordance with the same principles. Non sequitur.

(December 16, 2017 at 7:24 pm)Little Rik Wrote: Exactly the same applies to a body (brain  included).
That doesn’t mean that this wreck of a brain is able to put together an experience so sharp and vivid such as an NDE.
In fact the possibility to be able to do that are next to zero.

Citation please.

(December 16, 2017 at 7:24 pm)Little Rik Wrote: After you smash your car after an accident obviously there is a lot of activity in the smashed car.
The wreck will be very very hot.
Energy waves will travel very very fast from top to bottom from side to side.
There is no question about activities.
Exactly the same applies to a body (brain  included).
That doesn’t mean that this wreck of a brain is able to put together an experience so sharp and vivid such as an NDE.
In fact the possibility to be able to do that are next to zero.

Hey guys, whoever and wherever you are, I suggest you give up now. You've been doing the same thing for nearly five years and you are making fuckall progress. This bot of yours will never pass the Turing test.
What was it the man said? "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."
Kudos for your tenacity mind you; but honestly, I think it's time to pull the plug, you will never get this program of yours to convince anyone.

(December 16, 2017 at 9:07 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(December 16, 2017 at 7:24 pm)Little Rik Wrote: After you smash your car after an accident obviously there is a lot of activity in the smashed car.
The wreck will be very very hot.
Energy waves will travel very very fast from top
to bottom from side to side.
There is no question about activities.

Argument from metaphor? You're going to have
to do way better than that. The above says nothing which would convince a reasonable person that life continues after death. Even assuming that you have accurately described the energy dynamics involved in a car accident
that says nothing to prove that the soul acts in accordance with the same principles. Non sequitur.

(December 16, 2017 at 7:24 pm)Little Rik
dateline='1513466699' Wrote: Exactly the same applies to a body (brain  included).
That doesn’t mean that this wreck of a brain is able to put together an experience so sharp and
vivid such as an NDE.
In fact the possibility to be able to do that are next to zero.

Citation please.

Can anyone give me an update on Little Rik? Is he one of the few believers in the forums trying to convince people atheism is wrong?

Oh well, if the consciousness dies when the body dies then we should change all theories regarding abstract things.
So far we knew that abstract things can not be touched, smelled, seen, heard and most of all killed.
Considering that consciousness is abstract by nature then she suppose to be immune from death but this theory is not longer valid because atheists think that the rule that applies to abstract things does not apply to consciousness.
We always learn something new, dont we?

(December 16, 2017 at 10:08 pm)Macoleco Wrote: Can anyone give me an update on Little Rik? Is he one of the few believers in the forums trying to convince people atheism is wrong?

I'm rather new to the phenomenon that is Little Rik. But his reputation preceded him, and I'm learning fast. Still, I'm puzzled. He seems to argue for life after death, but his signature suggests atheism. *shrugs*