(December 20, 2017 at 12:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 11:51 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: CL, are you telling me that you have never had a sexual fantasy about a man who wasn’t your husband?  Ever?!

My ex boyfriends before I met my husband, but that's it lol. I Have to actually really really like someone before wanting to have sex with them.

Not even a fantasy about a male celebrity, or TV show character you find incredibly hot?  Damn, woman!  I have had tons of...pleasurable alone time with me, myself, and Agent Fox Mulder over the years.  😁😇

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My sex life is happy an healthy enough, I don't need to lecture others on how unhealthy thiers is.  They'll find out in due time.

It matters because sexuality makes such a difference in our lives.

Don't believe me; go ask any atheist doctor studying hormones and genetics. Sexual hormones are so important:

Quote:Your body is composed of a variety of different hormones, including growth and sex hormones, which carry messages between your organs and cells. Hormones are secreted by glands in the endocrine system to help the body stay balanced and function optimally. Aging is associated with a loss of sex hormones in both men and women. Replacing those lost male and female sex hormones can restore feelings of well-being, sex drive and sexual pleasure, energy levels, plus reverse muscle and bone loss along with other functions that are associated with aging. By doing this, we can age more slowly and have a better quality of life into old age.2-4

https://www.foreverhealth.com/blogs/fore...x-hormones

Food make you produce hormones. But Eating a lot makes you fat.
The same goes for sex.

Controlling yourself against the insisting of hormones, is a sign of loyalty. God means it; he created those hormones to test us.
Still; men and women can get married and have sex; God allows it.

But live the sinful life; and you get Aids.

He created sex and its hormones. And made us live with it so he tests us.
I think a true religion like Islam, will allow you to have sex in moderation. While other false religions, use it as a strong tool of control.

(December 20, 2017 at 7:18 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: It matters because sexuality makes such a difference in our lives.

Don't believe me; go ask any atheist doctor studying hormones and genetics. Sexual hormones are so important:

Quote:Your body is composed of a variety of different hormones, including growth and sex hormones, which carry messages between your organs and cells. Hormones are secreted by glands in the endocrine system to help the body stay balanced and function optimally. Aging is associated with a loss of sex hormones in both men and women. Replacing those lost male and female sex hormones can restore feelings of well-being, sex drive and sexual pleasure, energy levels, plus reverse muscle and bone loss along with other functions that are associated with aging. By doing this, we can age more slowly and have a better quality of life into old age.2-4

https://www.foreverhealth.com/blogs/fore...x-hormones

Food make you produce hormones. But Eating a lot makes you fat.
The same goes for sex.

Controlling yourself against the insisting of hormones, is a sign of loyalty. God means it; he created those hormones to test us.
Still; men and women can get married and have sex; God allows it.

But live the sinful life; and you get Aids.

He created sex and its hormones. And made us live with it so he tests us.

No, we evolved with hormones, no sky wizard did that.

But if you want to make that naked assertion, that is not a "test" it was torture for me, no fun one damned bit. I was bullied as a teen, and I had absolutely no luck with females back then. Hormones suck, but they are not the result of a sky wizard. 

And Atlass, you should know better than to claim any STD, much less aids was punishment. If you would find that claim to be bullshit if a right wing Christian were to claim it, do not expect us to chalk it up to Allah either.

Neither Mo or Jesus or Yahweh cause STDs anymore than Thor causes lightening.

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(December 19, 2017 at 3:29 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 2:25 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes, but....the question for Christians, and I think it is a legitimate question, is whether or not masturbation clearly falls into the fornication category. The only clear biblical reference to masturbation is Onan spilling his seed and even that seems to be more about him using the pull-out method to avoid his marital obligation. What is clear in several places is that cultivating lust is clearly sinful. To my mind there is a BIG difference between a teenager relieving him- or herself to release pent up sexual energy and a married 40-year old secretly salivating over the Story of O. The teen isn't cultivating lust; it's already there! It's just a matter of keeping kids away from graphic materials that will permanently warp their sexuality.

Teenagers will release pent up energy. Doesn't particularly concern me if that's all it is. I'm not even concerned about the moral aspect of it. That's between them and god. I am becoming concerned as a citizen though. Birth rates are below replacement and dropping, and guys addicted to porn is probably one factor contributing to that.

Quote:I would also add that I have great sympathy for people for whom finding a partner is extremely difficult, such as those who are severely disfigured. Such people still have needs. In the absence of a clear biblical prohibition, I don't see why they should be expected to comply with prudish Victorian era attitudes about sexuality.  Similarly I do not have a problem with the husband rubbing one out to collect sperm for artificial insemination of his wife, even if that means looking at pictures of women with staples in their abdomens.

That's between them and god. Doesn't concern me.

BULL, I would love religious people to keep their nose out of my business, but don't you dare lie to anyone here and try to claim religion keeps it's nose out of it.  Oh yea you  have never voted have you? You do vote? 

If you vote and you base your voting on what you think your God wants for your country, then you ARE making an attempt to stick your nose in other people's business.

Everyone masturbates and most Christians have had premarital sex. They just say they don't do these things.

It's really dumb. The more you abstain the hornier you get and the more you think about sex. The more you think about sex the more guilty you feel about having lustful thoughts.

I actually think whoever made this stuff up just wanted it to be as miserable as possible to not be married so the maximum number of people would be reproducing.

No logical person, however would think it's possible to only have sexual thoughts about one person your entire life.

(December 19, 2017 at 6:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I think in general all the animal instincts are covered by religious tenets.  The 7 sins are basically a list of motivated animal behaviors that, if they get out of control, become unproductive.

Sex is fine.  Get married, make babies, God approves.  Unproductive sex in any form is a waste of time and energy.
Eating is fine.  Eating far too much is unhealthy and inefficient of human resources, and is therefore proscribed against.

Of course, this all depends on the goal of maximizing efficiency and productivity, and not that of maximizing pleasure.

I disagree. Pleasure in the long term is maximized through control.

(December 20, 2017 at 8:03 am)Industrial Lad Wrote: Everyone masturbates and most Christians have had premarital sex. They just say they don't do these things.

It's really dumb. The more you abstain the hornier you get and the more you think about sex. The more you think about sex the more guilty you feel about having lustful thoughts.

I actually think whoever made this stuff up just wanted it to be as miserable as possible to not be married so the maximum number of people would be reproducing.

No logical person, however would think it's possible to only have sexual thoughts about one person your entire life.

It is simply not true that abstinence results in a vicious circle of increasing lust. It is just like fasting there is period of intense hunger but in short order that goes away and is replaced by an abiding sense of calm.

Nevertheless I know that Western culture treats sexual desire as some uncontrollable compulsion. That belief is very insidious and has destroyed more social goods than expanded freedom. When those rivers are dammed we gain access to more power and prevent dangerous flooding.

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(December 20, 2017 at 4:45 am)Aroura Wrote: deleted.
My sex life is happy an healthy enough, I don't need to lecture others on how unhealthy thiers is.  They'll find out in due time.

True enough. At the same time unhealthy messages about casual sex, serial monogamy, and their ubiquity can have widespread social consequences.

(December 20, 2017 at 12:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Again, im not talking about passing thoughts that are involuntary. I'm talking about actively visualizing a fantasy of having sex with someone who isn't your spouse.

I don't see this is being a difficult thing to abstain from doing, but I guess that's just because I have a completely different view of sex. I have no desire to do it with someone I don't care about, so there's no urge for me personally to fantasize about it. To me, sex is very much tied into love. I cant seperate the two even if I tried.

Honestly the thought of my husband fantasizing a 3some is probably even worse, even if I was involved. It just doesnt seem at all appropriate.

So the thing with fantasy, and why I brought up the 'lesbian loophole', is that fantasy doesn't necessarily involve having sex with someone who isn't your spouse.  I wasn't talking about imagining a 3some.  I was talking about him just imagining you with another woman.  Maybe just kissing.  Stuff like that can be enough.  Even less than that can be enough to find the book they're looking for in the self-help section.  Anything that is a turn-on can be used.  What if rather than lesbianism, it's you and Megan Fox playing beach volleyball for example?  Does he even like Megan Fox, or is that just a you thing?  

I'm not sure this is about your view of sex, as much as maybe it's about men vs. women.  I went to a catholic college with plenty of decent guys who I would be shocked to find any ever cheated on their wives, and I don't think any of them were 'fantasy' free.  Even the guy who became a priest liked to watch Baywatch. It's just hardwired in there.  

Just the bigger point though, is that for men, I'm not sure masturbating/fantasizing is exactly what you think it is or how the church characterizes it.  It seems like it'd be a shame for, what I think is a misunderstanding, to be something that could potentially cause you a lot of pain.

Actually, psychologists and sex therapists say a fantasy sex life is healthy. I understand some of the objections to porn, because it involves real, live people in the sex industry. But what is there to object to about your SO imagining getting it on with a famous person?  Or both of you dressing up and pretending?  

Nothing, that's what. It will actually improve your sex live AND your relationship. 


And the fact is, if you tell your partner that you will be emotionally crushed if they so much as think of Emilia Clarke or whoever during intercourse with you, how do you think that will impact your relationship? 

Ok, let's say person A is involved in their SO's fantasies, so he tells her about them, shares them with her, and they participate in them together.
Person B says she will be crushed if her SO has a fantasy about another person.  In his head only mind you. But they both equate it similar to cheating.

Let's say both SO's A and B want to be monogamous, but SO B is angry at her one day, or doesn't feel well, or hell, he just slips up and gives in and has a little fantasy about some actress.
Is he going to tell her, or is this going to become a lie, an omission, possibly the first of many?

And the other person, when they develop a new fantasy....their partner not only gets the truth, but gets to reap the sexual benefits of sharing in the fantasy life of their partner.  Win/win!!


When it comes to this notion of repressing thoughts, Christianity is actually trading in a proven healthy and beneficial couple behavior (shared fantasy) for a very unhealthy one (lying).
Go ask all those Guys on Ashley Madison.

(December 20, 2017 at 3:51 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 12:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My ex boyfriends before I met my husband, but that's it lol. I Have to actually really really like someone before wanting to have sex with them.

Not even a fantasy about a male celebrity, or TV show character you find incredibly hot?  Damn, woman!  I have had tons of...pleasurable alone time with me, myself, and Agent Fox Mulder over the years.  😁😇

No lol. I think Chace Crawford is super good looking, but I have no desire to have sex with him (i dont even know him) so there's no urge to fantasize.

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(December 20, 2017 at 10:47 am)wallym Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 12:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Again, im not talking about passing thoughts that are involuntary. I'm talking about actively visualizing a fantasy of having sex with someone who isn't your spouse.

I don't see this is being a difficult thing to abstain from doing, but I guess that's just because I have a completely different view of sex. I have no desire to do it with someone I don't care about, so there's no urge for me personally to fantasize about it. To me, sex is very much tied into love. I cant seperate the two even if I tried.

Honestly the thought of my husband fantasizing a 3some is probably even worse, even if I was involved. It just doesnt seem at all appropriate.

So the thing with fantasy, and why I brought up the 'lesbian loophole', is that fantasy doesn't necessarily involve having sex with someone who isn't your spouse.  I wasn't talking about imagining a 3some.  I was talking about him just imagining you with another woman.  Maybe just kissing.  Stuff like that can be enough.  Even less than that can be enough to find the book they're looking for in the self-help section.  Anything that is a turn-on can be used.  What if rather than lesbianism, it's you and Megan Fox playing beach volleyball for example?  Does he even like Megan Fox, or is that just a you thing?  

I'm not sure this is about your view of sex, as much as maybe it's about men vs. women.  I went to a catholic college with plenty of decent guys who I would be shocked to find any ever cheated on their wives, and I don't think any of them were 'fantasy' free.  Even the guy who became a priest liked to watch Baywatch. It's just hardwired in there.  

Just the bigger point though, is that for men, I'm not sure masturbating/fantasizing is exactly what you think it is or how the church characterizes it.  It seems like it'd be a shame for, what I think is a misunderstanding, to be something that could potentially cause you a lot of pain.

Oh I see what you mean. Well he's not into the lesbian thing. He says it doesn't bother him or gross him out, but it's not particularly arousing either.

But if he was into that, then I guess it wouldn't be so bad for him to fantasize about me kissing another girl. Not ideal, imho, but it wouldn't upset me or make me feel crappy.

And to clarify about Megan, I think shes super beautiful and has the ideal look for a woman. As in, I wish I looked like her. But there's no sexual feelings towards her on my part lol. I'm straight and I don't even know her. As for Mr CL, he thinks she's pretty too (I've asked him). What crazy nut doesn't??

I think you are correct that men tend to be more inclined to separate sex with someone away from a loving connection to them. Especially the more animalistic part of them. But I still fully believe that many men are capable of associating sex with love completely. I'd say a man's ability to do that is partly genetics (he jas to be a sensitive, romantic type guy) and the other part how they were brought up to view sex. And of course, the desire to do so.

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I'll tell you what. It doesn't mean much having me sit here as a woman and speak for my husband. I'll see if I can have him come on sometime and explain his perspective. He's a super busy guy but I'll try to have him on tonight, if he agrees to it.