My whole family (except my brother Owen who sees reality like I do) think things have 'gone the other way now'. Even my mom thinks women have it easier than men nowadays. It's insane.

(December 20, 2017 at 5:52 pm)Shell B Wrote: Given the history of oppression against women, CL, I doubt it's as simple as all that. Remember, white guys hated us more than black people, whom the white-wigged white guys really hated. So much so, that we only got the vote in the last century. There's no denying the oppression's there.

IMHO women are oppressed more by their biology than by evil men trying to keep women in their place. One could argue that the misguided efforts of many good men, in their desire to protect their women and children, resulted in inadvertent oppression. Times were different and I'm very reluctant to demonize people that lived before penicillin was discovered and latex invented. Rather than being a complete evil motivated by the desire to dominate, maybe patriarchy actually served a necessary purpose in past societies in which war, famine, and disease were daily threats. People, both men and women, had different sensibilities that seemed entirely reasonable to them, but to us sound oppressive - like being forced to marry the woman you knocked up. Perhaps someday, maybe sooner rather than later, people will consider it an act of oppression to knock up a women and NOT marry her.

(December 20, 2017 at 6:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 5:52 pm)Shell B Wrote: Given the history of oppression against women, CL, I doubt it's as simple as all that. Remember, white guys hated us more than black people, whom the white-wigged white guys really hated. So much so, that we only got the vote in the last century. There's no denying the oppression's there.

I get that theres been a lot of oppression in the past, but we are talking about today.

I feel like there aren't more women CEO's or whatever because less women than men are interested in that sort of thing, and/or they put more priority in motherhood. It's faulty to point to the lack of women in high powered career fields and assume it's because women aren't given the same opportunity simply for being female.

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(December 20, 2017 at 6:00 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: 5% Catholiclady, not 35%, not 30%. I think that the explanation given for the wage gap, but it's a totally unsatisfactory one for the leadership gap. Oh, women don't want to be ceos, they'd much rather breastfeed. What nonsense. The women who want to be CEOs are a self selecting group, just like the men who want to, and there is probably little crossover between them and stay at home mommies.

Plus, if it's all about egalitarianism like MRAs claim, then men can take care of the kids and the number would be more even, not less. Their arguments are shit and not even consistent, like that one.

They can decide if they want to copy feminism or just nay say everything. Because they have no philosophical leg to stand on.

Why is that nonesense? You think being a mom is less dignified and less fulfilling? What do you think then is the reason? You think women are being unfairly discriminated against in the work force?

I don't think there's anything alarming about the 5% number. There are very few women pilots as well (5%, actually), and it's not because they aren't allowed to be or because sexism is holding them back. Some jobs are just more male orientated and/or require a lot of time and dedication that many women don't prioritize because they are mothers.

First off, I absolutely never said anything bad about stay at home mom's. To say that I did is misleading and an attempt to change the subject.

I don't think the desire to be a stay at home mom could possibly coordinate with the 5% number. I don't think it has much effect on it at all, since the two groups just don't cross over. The type of people driven to become a CEO are not the same type who want to stay at home to raise kids.

That's why it's nonsense. It's like saying men don't make good CEOs because some of them are frat boys who play video games a lot. Those arent the type of people they are looking for. Now being a stay at home mom is a lot more admirable than that, they aren't the type of people they are looking for. They just aren't the same group of people. So I don't think it really effects it at all. But even if you took every single stay at home mom out of the equation, the 5% number is insane. MRAs originally crafted that argument you just made to explain the wage gap, which is about 23% but the CEO gap is 95% This is so lazy of MRAs to just reuse an argument when it doesn't even apply in any sense to the CEO gap.

Also you can't say women wouldn't make as good of CEOs. We know that women led companies actually out perform male led ones slightly. http://www.thebalance.com/why-women-led-...ks-4147472

Also it's not all about overt sexism, i.e. someone isn't hired because of gender, but how many female pilots do little girls see as an example?

What does just more make oriented even mean? You think women, with all the same training can't fly a plane as good as men for unspecified biological reasons? These are the sort of claims that MRAs make all the time, but because it's not an intellectual or academic group, unlike feminism, it's just not backed up by much at all.

P.S. The reason there are less female CEOs is sexism, I mean, obviously. Most of these boards of directors are guys who grew up in the 1970s, when it was still all but legal to beat your wife. http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-scien...c-violence

It would be totally crazy to deny there is sexism in that environment.

(December 20, 2017 at 1:15 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 2:22 am)Grandizer Wrote: Women with autism are there in a prevalent manner, theyre just very good at hiding it. There are several articles about hidden autism in women.

Then again, a lot of the time, if the person in question is higher functioning, one can be good at hiding it (sometimes, it's because of therapy, sometimes simply watching enough films to pick up on what's considered normal can help.) I've had some teachers who've only picked up on it because I don't bother with eye contact most of the time. I know for a fact that CL was surprised to find out I live with it. Hell, a lot of people spend most of their lives knowing there's something off and only figuring out it's an ASD later in life (say, Susan Boyle, David Byrne, Gary Numan, and Paddy Considine), but that could just be because autism was obscure until Rain Man, and it took longer for the public to catch on that we don't all act like Raymond Babbitt.

All of what you said is true. It is also clear to researchers and experts in autism (e.g. Tony Attwood) that a few men/boys and several women/girls with autism are very very good at hiding their struggles from the public because they have taught themselves through emulation and in an intellectual manner, how to socialize like "normal" people. Women do better at this because they have been conditioned as part of society to cope in such a manner, so its not really a biological thing, but there is a difference.

I say this as someone with high functioning autism who is good but not that good at hiding it. Ive met quite a few in one group that werent obvious to me at all they had autism. And Ive wondered if they actually did have the problem. But then I remember autism (high functioning) can be a very invisible disorder. Sometimes only the one with the struggles can see they are struggling with certain intuitions that are taken for granted by others.

Youre missing my point.

I'm not necessarily talking about being a full time, stay at home mom. I'm talking about the general demands of pregnancy and child rearing, which women have to balance with work if they choose to build a family and keep working. Those demands are still going to compete with her work for her time and energy, and for that reason, she may not be as interested in high profile careers such as being a CEO or a politician, etc. Those types of careers require a lot of dedication in order for you to advance and be successful. And many women simply don't want to be wrapped up in their jobs to that extent. They get pregnant, they have their babies, they take time off, etc, these other priorities take over, and naturally, career usually takes a bit of a backseat. So they stick with more conventional careers that don't take as much from them. It's just a different type of mindset for women than it is for men because men don't get pregnant and have babies.

And I never said women wouldn't make as good of CEO's lol. That's not at all what I'm saying.

I have absolutely zero interest in mollifying those who insist on defining feminism by its fringe elements. So I will continue to support mainstream feminist efforts and causes, and thus will continue to identify as a feminist.
 
I also refuse to re-package my support of feminism by summarily shooing it under the vaguely generic umbrella of egalitarianism, due to the fact that every time I hear someone cawwing  "Feminism Bad...Egalitarianism More Appropriate!" it immediately brings to mind the charmingly DISMISSIVE exclamations of "buh..bu...bu...But...ALL Lives Matter, don't they?!" in response to protests over police shootings.

Yeah...We all know this, dipshits. 

In context, "egalitarianism" is a bullshit, cop-out term tossed around by those who are disinterested in really getting to the heart of a given matter; a cheap, meaningless concession offered up with the intent of shutting legitimate feminist dialogue down. 

"Feminist" is just one of MANY labels which accurately define my worldview. And as a position, it is perfectly reasonable.
I'm not going to be fearful of/shy away from using it, because doing so allows the assholes of the world to succeed in changing the narrative.

(December 20, 2017 at 2:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never met an MRA person, but when I watched the documentary, they do raise some valid points. Things I had never considered or thought of before.

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And Cap, as for the CEO and other more high powered jobs thing, that may just be because women generally tend to be less career orientated than men.

...Because most of us do go on to get pregnant and have children, and when that happens, we tend to prioritize that above all else...

I'm perplexed why you are speaking for "we" and "most of us". Watch those broad-brush strokes. Speak for yourself and your religion but you certainly don't speak for me and I daresay you don't speak for anyone else.

CapnAwesome, Kevin, Thump, et al. have given some good rebuttals on the OP and I don't have much to add to what you all have said.

Woe to anyone who tries to brainwash my kid into believing that women generally tend to be less career oriented than men. It is good to reminded, however, that there are backward-minded people saying this and now I can be more vigilant.

On a side note, reason # 8,236 to steer far clear of religion and its primitive ways.

-Teresa

(December 20, 2017 at 9:34 pm)Tres Leches Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 2:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never met an MRA person, but when I watched the documentary, they do raise some valid points. Things I had never considered or thought of before.

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And Cap, as for the CEO and other more high powered jobs thing, that may just be because women generally tend to be less career orientated than men.

...Because most of us do go on to get pregnant and have children, and when that happens, we tend to prioritize that above all else...

I'm perplexed why you are speaking for "we" and "most of us". Watch those broad-brush strokes. Speak for yourself and your religion but you certainly don't speak for me and I daresay you don't speak for anyone else.

Right.

I said "Most of us do go on to get pregnant and have kids." That's a fact. Most women do become mothers.

I said "We tend to prioritize our children." That's also a fact. Most women are good mothers who make their kids #1. (Nothing at all to be ashamed of)

As for "men generally being more career oriented than women," just look around. There are many more stay at home wives than husbands, and high powered, demanding careers tend to be male dominated.

You may not like it, but its true. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. Women can have careers too and be amazing at whatever they do. No one is saying otherwise. But are there more men working more high demand jobs? Yes. That doesn't make us lesser than men.

Also, no one here has said a single word about religion. The above has nothing to do with it.

I'm tired now and could sure use a sugar mamma. Not sure how much of a trophy I'll make.

Takers?

(December 20, 2017 at 10:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: [...]
I said "We tend to prioritize our children." That's also a fact. Most women are good mothers who make their kids #1. (Nothing at all to be ashamed of)[...]

Oh, but I though Jebus was supposed to be "#1"... Seems like you can't get your priorities straight.