(December 20, 2017 at 11:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 3:51 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Not even a fantasy about a male celebrity, or TV show character you find incredibly hot?  Damn, woman!  I have had tons of...pleasurable alone time with me, myself, and Agent Fox Mulder over the years.  😁😇

No lol. I think Chace Crawford is super good looking, but I have no desire to have sex with him (i dont even know him) so there's no urge to fantasize.

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(December 20, 2017 at 10:47 am)wallym Wrote: So the thing with fantasy, and why I brought up the 'lesbian loophole', is that fantasy doesn't necessarily involve having sex with someone who isn't your spouse.  I wasn't talking about imagining a 3some.  I was talking about him just imagining you with another woman.  Maybe just kissing.  Stuff like that can be enough.  Even less than that can be enough to find the book they're looking for in the self-help section.  Anything that is a turn-on can be used.  What if rather than lesbianism, it's you and Megan Fox playing beach volleyball for example?  Does he even like Megan Fox, or is that just a you thing?  

I'm not sure this is about your view of sex, as much as maybe it's about men vs. women.  I went to a catholic college with plenty of decent guys who I would be shocked to find any ever cheated on their wives, and I don't think any of them were 'fantasy' free.  Even the guy who became a priest liked to watch Baywatch. It's just hardwired in there.  

Just the bigger point though, is that for men, I'm not sure masturbating/fantasizing is exactly what you think it is or how the church characterizes it.  It seems like it'd be a shame for, what I think is a misunderstanding, to be something that could potentially cause you a lot of pain.

Oh I see what you mean. Well he's not into the lesbian thing. He says it doesn't bother him or gross him out, but it's not particularly arousing either.

But if he was into that, then I guess it wouldn't be so bad for him to fantasize about me kissing another girl. Not ideal, imho, but it wouldn't upset me or make me feel crappy.

And to clarify about Megan, I think shes super beautiful and has the ideal look for a woman. As in, I wish I looked like her. But there's no sexual feelings towards her on my part lol. I'm straight and I don't even know her. As for Mr CL, he thinks she's pretty too (I've asked him). What crazy nut doesn't??

I think you are correct that men tend to be more inclined to separate sex with someone away from a loving connection to them. Especially the more animalistic part of them. But I still fully believe that many men are capable of associating sex with love completely. I'd say a man's ability to do that is partly genetics (he jas to be a sensitive, romantic type guy) and the other part how they were brought up to view sex. And of course, the desire to do so.

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I'll tell you what. It doesn't mean much having me sit here as a woman and speak for my husband. I'll see if I can have him come on sometime and explain his perspective. He's a super busy guy but I'll try to have him on tonight, if he agrees to it.

Cameras or it didn't happen. 

(December 20, 2017 at 9:48 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: True enough. At the same time unhealthy messages about casual sex, serial monogamy, and their ubiquity can have widespread social consequences.

Those things aren't unhealthy... they're fun

Just like porn is! Fun!

I have to watch more and more extreme stuff now just to get the same kick

But the same is true of married couples, who have been together for decades, when they're actually having sex

(December 20, 2017 at 11:13 am)Aroura Wrote: Actually, psychologists and sex therapists say a fantasy sex life is healthy. But what is there to object to about your SO imagining getting it on with a famous person?

I believe there is a middle ground. I disagree with the notion that any lustful thought is necessarily sinful. The passage most quoted is Jesus saying that men who look at women with lust in their heart is an act of adultery. Yes and no. There is a big difference between noticing the sexual allure of another and cultivating a desire for another. My personal rule is the first look is free but the second look crosses the line. Or the line from Sienfield...cleavage is like the sun, you look but you look away. A red blooded man, even a married man, cannot help but glancing at a beautiful woman who walks into a room. Fine. But only a creep keeps staring at her, unless of course he's single and making an evaluation about whether to ask her out or not.

I agree that fantasy and whimsy, "naughty nurse" or whatever, are healthy for a couple to keep the spark alive but focusing on each other as the fulfillment of those fantasies is critical. Again, it is about cultivating an interest in the enjoyment of permitted pleasures rather than growing hurtful and divisive ones. I want my wife to make love to ME and not some hot stud inside her head.

Movies and television are filled with handsome men and glamorous women and usually that makes perfect sense. But it seems to me that entertainment is far too graphic, not just sex but violence too. The producers of Voyager didn't have to dress Seven of Nine in a catsuit or people ripping off their clothes to know they're having sex. We don't need to see Punisher shoot everyone in the head with bits of skull and brain spattering the wall. I don't think I'm that much of a prude. I just think sex and violence have replaced the art of suggestion in art and undermined viewer engagement.

I don't believe movies, or music, or video games directly cause either promiscuity or pathology. Nor am I naive enough to believe in some prior golden age of virtue. There were problems with prudery in the past and today we have different problems related to promiscuity that cannot be brushed away.

(December 20, 2017 at 11:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

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(December 20, 2017 at 10:47 am)wallym Wrote: So the thing with fantasy, and why I brought up the 'lesbian loophole', is that fantasy doesn't necessarily involve having sex with someone who isn't your spouse.  I wasn't talking about imagining a 3some.  I was talking about him just imagining you with another woman.  Maybe just kissing.  Stuff like that can be enough.  Even less than that can be enough to find the book they're looking for in the self-help section.  Anything that is a turn-on can be used.  What if rather than lesbianism, it's you and Megan Fox playing beach volleyball for example?  Does he even like Megan Fox, or is that just a you thing?  

I'm not sure this is about your view of sex, as much as maybe it's about men vs. women.  I went to a catholic college with plenty of decent guys who I would be shocked to find any ever cheated on their wives, and I don't think any of them were 'fantasy' free.  Even the guy who became a priest liked to watch Baywatch. It's just hardwired in there.  

Just the bigger point though, is that for men, I'm not sure masturbating/fantasizing is exactly what you think it is or how the church characterizes it.  It seems like it'd be a shame for, what I think is a misunderstanding, to be something that could potentially cause you a lot of pain.

Oh I see what you mean. Well he's not into the lesbian thing. He says it doesn't bother him or gross him out, but it's not particularly arousing either.

But if he was into that, then I guess it wouldn't be so bad for him to fantasize about me kissing another girl. Not ideal, imho, but it wouldn't upset me or make me feel crappy.

And to clarify about Megan, I think shes super beautiful and has the ideal look for a woman. As in, I wish I looked like her. But there's no sexual feelings towards her on my part lol. I'm straight and I don't even know her. As for Mr CL, he thinks she's pretty too (I've asked him). What crazy nut doesn't??

I think you are correct that men tend to be more inclined to separate sex with someone away from a loving connection to them. Especially the more animalistic part of them. But I still fully believe that many men are capable of associating sex with love completely. I'd say a man's ability to do that is partly genetics (he jas to be a sensitive, romantic type guy) and the other part how they were brought up to view sex. And of course, the desire to do so.

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I'll tell you what. It doesn't mean much having me sit here as a woman and speak for my husband. I'll see if I can have him come on sometime and explain his perspective. He's a super busy guy but I'll try to have him on tonight, if he agrees to it.

Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with your attitude.  It's just very very ambitious.  Like you're running a marathon, and you sprint out of the gate, and say "If I can't keep this up for 26 miles, I'm going to be devastated!"  You two could very well be the Kenyans of marriage, but my knee jerk reaction makes me think "Whoa, pace yourself.  You've got 50 years to go."  Maybe it's just the language you used of 'crushed and furious' that made me say 'yikes.'

And I don't think associating sex and love completely is far fetched.  It's arousal and the desire to orgasm that I think are tougher to squeeze under the 'only with love' umbrella, because those impulses are sort of doing their own thing.

(December 20, 2017 at 12:44 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 11:13 am)Aroura Wrote: Actually, psychologists and sex therapists say a fantasy sex life is healthy. But what is there to object to about your SO imagining getting it on with a famous person?

I believe there is a middle ground. I disagree with the notion that any lustful thought is necessarily sinful. The passage most quoted is Jesus saying that men who look at women with lust in their heart is an act of adultery. Yes and no. There is a big difference between noticing the sexual allure of another and cultivating a desire for another. My personal rule is the first look is free but the second look crosses the line. Or the line from Sienfield...cleavage is like the sun, you look but you look away. A red blooded man, even a married man, cannot help but glancing at a beautiful woman who walks into a room. Fine. But only a creep keeps staring at her, unless of course he's single and making an evaluation about whether to ask her out or not.

I agree with this, btw. That's what I was trying to explain when I differentiated between acknowledging/appreciating that someone is attractive and even having a momentary feeling of arousal when seeing them, and taking it to the next level by visualizing fantasies of having sex with them... or even just gawking at them, especially if you're a married man.

Quote: i agree that fantasy and whimsy, "naughty nurse" or whatever, are healthy for a couple to keep the spark alive but focusing on each other as the fulfillment of those fantasies is critical. Again, it is about cultivating an interest in the enjoyment of permitted pleasures rather than growing hurtful and divisive ones. I want my wife to make love to ME and not some hot stud inside her head.

I agree. So long as the naughty nurse is me role playing and not a fantasy of some other real person we know or have seen. But I think that's what you meant as well.

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(December 20, 2017 at 1:15 pm)wallym Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 11:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

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Oh I see what you mean. Well he's not into the lesbian thing. He says it doesn't bother him or gross him out, but it's not particularly arousing either.

But if he was into that, then I guess it wouldn't be so bad for him to fantasize about me kissing another girl. Not ideal, imho, but it wouldn't upset me or make me feel crappy.

And to clarify about Megan, I think shes super beautiful and has the ideal look for a woman. As in, I wish I looked like her. But there's no sexual feelings towards her on my part lol. I'm straight and I don't even know her. As for Mr CL, he thinks she's pretty too (I've asked him). What crazy nut doesn't??

I think you are correct that men tend to be more inclined to separate sex with someone away from a loving connection to them. Especially the more animalistic part of them. But I still fully believe that many men are capable of associating sex with love completely. I'd say a man's ability to do that is partly genetics (he jas to be a sensitive, romantic type guy) and the other part how they were brought up to view sex. And of course, the desire to do so.

---

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I'll tell you what. It doesn't mean much having me sit here as a woman and speak for my husband. I'll see if I can have him come on sometime and explain his perspective. He's a super busy guy but I'll try to have him on tonight, if he agrees to it.

Just to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with your attitude.  It's just very very ambitious.  Like you're running a marathon, and you sprint out of the gate, and say "If I can't keep this up for 26 miles, I'm going to be devastated!"  You two could very well be the Kenyans of marriage, but my knee jerk reaction makes me think "Whoa, pace yourself.  You've got 50 years to go."  Maybe it's just the language you used of 'crushed and furious' that made me say 'yikes.'

And I don't think associating sex and love completely is far fetched.  It's arousal and the desire to orgasm that I think are tougher to squeeze under the 'only with love' umbrella, because those impulses are sort of doing their own thing.

Let me clarify that while I would certainly feel crushed and angry if my husband was choosing to look at porn at any point instead of having sex with me, I would be able to forgive him and move on. It's not like i would let it destroy our marriage. But I would certainly hold him to that standard, and I'm sure he actually appreciates that.

I agree about arousal and desire to orgams, in and of themselves, not always being about love. Sometimes a person can just be sitting around and feel horny for no reason other than because its been a while. And I get that men are visually stimulated, and especially if you're a really young man, it's perfectly normal to have a moment of involuntary arousal just at the sight of a pretty girl walking by.

But when it comes to actually wanting to have sex with someone, or visualizing/fantasizing having sex with them, I personally can't unless it's someone I at least care about.

Industrial Lad Wrote:Everyone masturbates and most Christians have had premarital sex. They just say they don't do these things.

It's really dumb. The more you abstain the hornier you get and the more you think about sex. The more you think about sex the more guilty you feel about having lustful thoughts.

I actually think whoever made this stuff up just wanted it to be as miserable as possible to not be married so the maximum number of people would be reproducing.

No logical person, however would think it's possible to only have sexual thoughts about one person your entire life.

Neo Scholastic Wrote:It is simply not true that abstinence results in a vicious circle of increasing lust. It is just like fasting there is period of intense hunger but in short order that goes away and is replaced by an abiding sense of calm.

Nevertheless I know that Western culture treats sexual desire as some uncontrollable compulsion. That belief is very insidious and has destroyed more social goods than expanded freedom. When those rivers are dammed we gain access to more power and prevent dangerous flooding.

If you abstain from both masturbation and sex, you will get more and more horny, unless you have nocturnal emissions. That's bullshit.

I'm not saying people don't have control over their actions, I'm saying Christian teachings about sex are bullshit and total abstinence (including masturbation, which AFAIK is what most denominations teach, and what the Bible very strongly implies)only results in greater and greater unecessary misery.

Plus you have the hypocritcal stigmatization of unmarried mothers, especially teen moms. Most of them did the same thing, it just didn't result in pregnancy. Religion puts them in the right frame of mind to pretend their feces don't emit an unpleasant odor.

The Bible says that most people should get married and have sex regularly.

Works for me...

(December 20, 2017 at 4:48 pm)alpha male Wrote: The Bible says that most people should get married and have sex regularly.

Works for me...

Why should anyone care what the Bible says?

So I asked Mr CL to put in his 2 cents and he's currently putting in his 50 lol.

(December 20, 2017 at 11:15 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: So I asked Mr CL to put in his 2 cents and he's currently putting on his 50 Cal.

  J/K

Looks like he made it through SERE training?