(January 30, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 30, 2018 at 11:07 am)SteveII Wrote: If you were born a Muslim and heard of Jesus and the plan of salvation, now you have an obligation to respond to that specifically. 

This takes care of any objection based on not being fair, or unlucky as to place of birth.

I also wanted to discuss this specifically. Because I do very much see it as still being a chance/unlucky thing.  

Let's just be reasonable for a second here. If you were raised a Muslim, believed in salvation through Islam, believed in Mohammed, etc etc... how would you know that you had a moral obligation to examine Christianity in the first place?? How would you be like "Well, I was taught by my parents and everyone I love and trust that Islam is the way to salvation... but someone mentioned something about some Jesus guy today and said I need to be Christian to be saved. Yikes! I better look into it." I mean, do we, as Christians, feel like we have a moral obligation to look into other religions because people of those religions also say you need to be saved through their own prophet? If you and I were raised Muslim chances are we'd both be Muslim today lol.

We all have a moral obligation to seek truth, yes, but we can't discount the fact that people can make honest mistakes and that upbringing and other factors which are outside their control doesn't play a role in their conclusion of the truth.

So going purely by whether or not you've heard of Jesus still seems unfair and unlucky if you happened to be born into a different faith.

Let me clarify a little.

When I say "heard of Jesus" I don't mean the literal name of the context the Muslims would put him in (great prophet). I am talking about being presented with the plan of salvation and understanding it. You can't truly reject what you don't understand. 

I have heard (in person) former Muslims talk about the numerous people they know who were devout Muslims who had a vision or dream (sometime repeated) of Jesus which prompted them to investigate further. My point here is that God knows the heart of everyone and can and does give people opportunity to respond to him even in their context. 

I think everyone has an obligation to seek out truth about God. There is excellent evidence that this desire is built into us. I personally am aware of the basics of all the worlds main religions. I find Christianity to be the most evidenced, most internally consistent, and most closely aligned with reality.

Eternal damnation hinging on a persons response to a fever dream.....and we're supposed to approach -any- of this as less than painfully idiotic? You find nothing, you believe much.

(January 30, 2018 at 12:40 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 30, 2018 at 12:19 pm)SteveII Wrote: The doctrines come from assembling the information we have in the Bible into a systematic, internally consistent framework.

And how was the bible assembled?

Sorry, not going down that rabbit trail.

(January 30, 2018 at 1:17 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(January 30, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I also wanted to discuss this specifically. Because I do very much see it as still being a chance/unlucky thing.  

Let's just be reasonable for a second here. If you were raised a Muslim, believed in salvation through Islam, believed in Mohammed, etc etc... how would you know that you had a moral obligation to examine Christianity in the first place?? How would you be like "Well, I was taught by my parents and everyone I love and trust that Islam is the way to salvation... but someone mentioned something about some Jesus guy today and said I need to be Christian to be saved. Yikes! I better look into it." I mean, do we, as Christians, feel like we have a moral obligation to look into other religions because people of those religions also say you need to be saved through their own prophet? If you and I were raised Muslim chances are we'd both be Muslim today lol.

We all have a moral obligation to seek truth, yes, but we can't discount the fact that people can make honest mistakes and that upbringing and other factors which are outside their control doesn't play a role in their conclusion of the truth.

So going purely by whether or not you've heard of Jesus still seems unfair and unlucky if you happened to be born into a different faith.

Let me clarify a little.

When I say "heard of Jesus" I don't mean the literal name of the context the Muslims would put him in (great prophet). I am talking about being presented with the plan of salvation and understanding it. You can't truly reject what you don't understand. 

I have heard (in person) former Muslims talk about the numerous people they know who were devout Muslims who had a vision or dream (sometime repeated) of Jesus which prompted them to investigate further. My point here is that God knows the heart of everyone and can and does give people opportunity to respond to him even in their context. 

I think everyone has an obligation to seek out truth about God. There is excellent evidence that this desire is built into us. I personally am aware of the basics of all the worlds main religions. I find Christianity to be the most evidenced, most internally consistent, and most closely aligned with reality.

Ok, yes... that sounds more reasonable.

Though I would say my standards of what constitutes deliberate rejection is still a bit more relaxed than yours. A person can be presented with Christianity, understand it, and still be unable to conclude that it is all true. An honest mistake on their part - a distinction from knowing it is true and choosing to reject it/be dismissive about it.

As you said though, God knows the heart, not us.

God's opinion of the heathen seems decidedly less ecumenical than your own, lol.

(January 30, 2018 at 12:56 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 30, 2018 at 12:44 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-...s-be-saved


CL.. As a Muslim and an Arab; I assure you that other Catholics didn't just see my people as "infidels worthy of hell" back in the past; but they even waged a bloody barbarian war called "the Crusade" against us; then went on to exterminate a whole population of Heathens in South and North America.

The Catholic faith is a contradictory faith that had so many faces across history; and changed skins and colors depending on the social and economic situation of the vessel it filled; but one thing for certain: Catholics did this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Ayyadieh

But we can say that the times of Saladin are long gone; demons like the Lion Heart are long dead; but I think Catholicism of today is not even Catholicism anymore. Its label needs to change to something else. But the notion of "not judging" is just a direct rip-off from other faiths and doctrines, in other words the new skin Catholicism is wearing, cannot erase what the Lion Heart have carved; or what these guys had eaten:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Ma%27arra

I usually don't read/respond to your ramblings, but this is particularly frustrating, since 1. you're a Muslim from Saudi trying to teach a practicing catholic about Catholicism, and 2. the exact quote of mine you are responding to as well as numerous Catholic links already posted here address specifically what that phrase means, and it isn't what you are trying to portray out of context, and 3. You're a Muslim... Islam is the most violtent religion on the planet by far and you have 0 room to talk.

Ramblings?
First; I'm not Saudi. Please don't insult me.

Second; I don't recall that you are the author of the modern Christian faith or the author of Catholicism. It's not just Cathliicism that I can teach you about; but everything since I have eyes to read. When God takes away my sight and my brain and my logic; then I will cease to read about things, and teach people about what I read.
 
Third; It looks like Catholics themselves don't know who is going where according to their own faith!
http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/who-go...heaven.htm

Quote:If you commit one or more actual mortal sins, and you never repent through the last moment of your life, then you will certainly go to Hell forever. No matter how much good you have done in your life, if you have deliberately and knowingly done anything that is seriously wrong, without repenting before you die, you will certainly go to Hell.

But let's be honest: it's not "cool" to say the above quote in the middle of Secular people. But we all know it.
Can I teach you about the Bible?

Quote:Revelation 21:8


8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Quote:Psalm 9:17


17 The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, all the nations that forget God.

Quote:Jude 1:7

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

More? If you need more; I can quote more. Don't say it's rambling; that's the Bible !

If the Bible, that condemns homosexuals to be in hell, non-believers to be in hell, mages to be in hell, according to the above verses, is an out of context quote; then Catholicism is not about the Bible; but about the ambitions and greed that moved the Crusades, moved the Inquisitions, moved the invasion of Iraq, moved the Republican party in the U.S. I see Satan himself behind the religious institutions. Just imagining the voices of the chewing of human meat or the bone cracking due to the maiden's hug make me...

(January 30, 2018 at 12:39 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(January 30, 2018 at 12:17 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Tim Staples (the guy who answered the question) is a former protestant turned catholic and takes the uber conservative approach to everything lol. I am familiar with him. Nothing he says is heretical, but his take away/break down is certainly on the very conservative end of the spectrum. If you read the actual catechism, it speaks about having knowledge, and purposely rejecting that knowledge. That's the crux. It doesn't necessarily specify that it can only mean literally that you have never heard of Jesus. It's certainly one for sure way of not having knowledge, and is perhaps why it was used as an example, but I don't see how it's only way. I don't think even Tim said explicitly that it's the only way, though that seems to be his implication. 

In contrast, check out how this priest answered the same question and said no such thing: http://www.xt3.com/library/view.php?id=9728

...In the very end of it, he even says this about atheists: "...if through no ill will someone cannot believe in God, but nevertheless lives a morally upright life then in some way God's grace will be able to work." He then says "Obviously here it depends on each individual and we have to leave it up to God to judge." ... which has really been my main point through all of this.

I understand. The caution would be that to adopt a liberal interpretation of this doctrine is the the price of being wrong is of ultimate significance. Telling people they are okay as long as they honestly try is not only a very minority position among all Christian groups (including Catholics), but seems motivated by emotions--not a different interpretation of scripture. If people come to rely on this for their own lives, the price of being wrong has eternal consequences.

I get erring on the side of caution, which is why the Church is very careful not to say "Everyone can go to Heaven, don't worry, just be a good person!!"

...Heck, Pope Francis got a lot of crap for saying almost exactly that lol. It can give off the impression that seeking truth honestly isn't important, when indeed it is a major part of it.

That's not the message I'm trying to give off, and I would say my conclusions about this come from logic, not emotion. I dont see how it can make logical sense for good and honest people to get damned from an honest mistake, imho, considering Hell is supposed to be something that you choose by deliberately rejecting God.

Catholics have a get out of magic book free card, Atlas.  Whatever gave you the impression that theirs was a biblical faith?

(January 30, 2018 at 1:19 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(January 30, 2018 at 12:40 pm)pocaracas Wrote: And how was the bible assembled?

Sorry, not going down that rabbit trail.

Lol...
A circular trail does tend to be never-ending...

(January 30, 2018 at 1:38 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: More? If you need more; I can quote more. Don't say it's rambling; that's the Bible !

The two are synonymous.