You'd have done as much good in Honduras had you never mentioned god. That's just what poor hondurans need, another master.

(August 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm)salty Wrote: Let's just make this clear: You measure world suffering by what you are told (via news, etc), but in truth you don't know whether God is moving or not.

God promises that he will show himself, but not until everyone is given the chance to be deceived and wrapped up in their own broken reasons to deny him. Even if he chose to come down now and then, we would attribute every miracle and healing, every special deliverance to something else. We'd find something to give the credit to, you know you wouldn't give it to a deity, you'd be quicker to hand it over to science or chance.

Since we can't know what proof god would actually use to show himself to be the one and only creator of the universe were he to visit - you can't tell us what we would or would not do in that event. So this argument of yours is baseless and unprovable.

Quote:Really, human suffering is the easiest way to be deceived, because you have news papers, television, you have the internet and the smart phone, you think because you can see suffering, that you can see healing and deliverance too? You think good things are news worthy?

I don't know what your point is. We've all seen people get well and be healed by medical science. We've also seen billions suffer and die. Your point is irrelevant as it does not prove that god did anything.

Quote:You think because you can see what's happening to people's bodies that you can see what's happening to their souls? And you think because you don't believe in God that he's not working miracles in the lives of people around the world. Do you have any way to check whether people feel blessed or not? Unless you go to these suffering people, how do you know God is not moving? And how do you know these very people you're "defending" are not followers of God, blessing his name?

How do you know god is moving anymore than anyone else?! Can you read minds? The truth is, you don't know. You assume that god must have some kind of plan, but you only really assume that because that is what you have been told. Another unprovable assertion.

Quote:Do you know who suffering people usually depend on? Christians. They depend on Christians, because some people who believe in nothing serve themselves, while some people who believe in something holy and loving, serve others. It's clear to me that human suffering is simply another way for you to deny God's existence so you can continue living by your own rules.

Another stupid assumption made by the ignorant ... Atheists do not need excuses to deny something that cannot be proven to exist.
And most importantly - I live "by my own rules" rather than your gods for one very good reason: Your god's rules require me to be a bigoted asshole who goes around judging, crusading, and even killing people (my own family members if needs be) who don't support his ass-holiness. Living by my rules is far more humane, fair and kind than the rules of your self-absorbed god.

Quote:Lastly, your personal decision to deny Christ does absolutely nothing to stop people from suffering around the world, so unless you intend to do something personally about this terrible suffering that is "proof" God isn't real, don't accuse an entity that you can't see of doing nothing, by giving people hope and moving in ways that you can't see, this entity is doing more than you ever could.

No he's not, and just because you believe something to be true, doesn't make it so.

God is not the one providing food to Africa. We are. God is not the one cleaning up the tsunami. We are. God is not the one who destroyed the dictator, Hitler, who killed 6 million Jews (god's own fucking people by the way). We did that. Your god isn't doing jack shit - but how convenient for you to be able to say, "you just can't see how god is moving." You sheep!

(August 29, 2011 at 11:00 am)salty Wrote: "The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the mind but of the will, not so much "I can't" but "I won't." - Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity

What's your gut reaction to this?

---

Evidence?

If your god (if you believe Jesus is god) obliged to provide evidence for doubting Thomas why can he not do the same thing for other non-believers, peoples of different faiths and myself?

Its not exactly like he hasn't got all the time in the world if you're arguing he's eternal. What, does listening to angels sing him praises in Heaven constantly matter far more to him than his own creation?

Either way, your god concept is an ass.

(August 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm)salty Wrote: Let's just make this clear: You measure world suffering by what you are told (via news, etc),

Uhhhh.... not true. I can see suffering with my own eyes. All I have to do is take a walk through the cancer ward of the local hospital.

Quote: but in truth you don't know whether God is moving or not.

There's just as much evidence that "God" is moving as there is that The Great Ju-Ju is moving.

Quote:God promises that he will show himself, but not until everyone is given the chance to be deceived and wrapped up in their own broken reasons to deny him.

"God" said this? Really? Where? When? Or is this found in a book written by MEN?

Quote:Even if he chose to come down now and then, we would attribute every miracle and healing, every special deliverance to something else.

Wrong again. If this deity deigned to appear to us and healed sick people with a wave of his hand, it would be nearly impossible to deny his existence or attribute these healings to "something else". Of course, this has never happened. Shocking....

Quote: We'd find something to give the credit to, you know you wouldn't give it to a deity, you'd be quicker to hand it over to science or chance.

If people pray over a sick child and the child recovers, I would be much quicker to credit the child's immune system or the medication taken before I would think the prayers had anything to do with it.

I have an idea! Let's take a group of sick people and treat one group with prayers only and the other group with modern medicine and no prayers. Which group do you think would be most likely to recover? In fact, I'd even have nothing but believers in the prayer group and the modern medicine group would be nothing but atheists! My guess is that modern medicine would be far more beneficial than prayers.

Quote:Really, human suffering is the easiest way to be deceived, because you have news papers, television, you have the internet and the smart phone,

You think suffering couldn't be witnessed without any of these modern devices?

Quote:you think because you can see suffering, that you can see healing and deliverance too?

Healing? Yes, I've seen modern medicine and people's immune systems heal many maladies. And, yes, I've seen "Deliverance". Quite the movie! Although banjo music now makes me apprehensive.

Quote:You think good things are news worthy?

Yes. I've often seen uplifting stories on the news.

Quote:You think because you can see what's happening to people's bodies that you can see what's happening to their souls?

Show me a "soul". Yeah, didn't think you could.

Quote:And you think because you don't believe in God that he's not working miracles in the lives of people around the world.

No, I don't believe your deity is "working miracles" because there is NO EVIDENCE that he's doing such a thing.

Quote:Do you have any way to check whether people feel blessed or not?

What does this have to do with anything? Feeling "blessed" means nothing.

Quote:Unless you go to these suffering people, how do you know God is not moving?

Because there is NO EVIDENCE that "God" is "moving".

Quote:And how do you know these very people you're "defending" are not followers of God, blessing his name?

Irrelevant. Believers are indoctrinated to the point that no matter what happens to them they can somehow praise their deity. Believers will have a child suffer and die from cancer, yet they'll still thank their god. I find it pretty incredible and rather sickening.

Quote:Do you know who suffering people usually depend on? Christians.

So what? Christians are in the majority (at least in the US). If Christians DIDN'T provide most of the help for suffering people there would be something wrong.

Quote:They depend on Christians, because some people who believe in nothing serve themselves, while some people who believe in something holy and loving, serve others.

Are you insinuating that atheists don't help others in need? Because that's what it sounds like. And it's a pile of bullshit.

Quote: It's clear to me that human suffering is simply another way for you to deny God's existence so you can continue living by your own rules.

No, human suffering proves your statement, "(God) would never allow that which he loves most to suffer unless they chose to suffer", is a lie. And you make the stereotypical fallacy of assuming atheists deny the existence of your deity because we want to "(live) by (our) own rules".

/facepalm/

I (and the vast majority of atheists) very much live by the rules of society. We have no problem doing this. We have no desire to run amuck stealing, raping and killing. It just boggles my mind that someone would need a deity to tell them it is wrong to do such things.

Quote:Lastly, your personal decision to deny Christ does absolutely nothing to stop people from suffering around the world,

Gee, no kidding? Then my denying your godboy does just as much to stop suffering as your godboy!

Quote: so unless you intend to do something personally about this terrible suffering that is "proof" God isn't real,

I give money to various charities. I help people when I can. And it matters not a whit as far as this debate is concerned.

Quote:don't accuse an entity that you can't see of doing nothing,

I'm not accusing an entity I can't see "of doing nothing". I'm saying there is no evidence your entity does anything. Bit of a difference there.

Quote:by giving people hope

False hope.

Quote: and moving in ways that you can't see,

Or hear. Or notice. Or detect in any way.

Quote: this entity is doing more than you ever could.

Crappola.

If I send a care package to an area devestated by a natural disaster I'm doing more than your deity ever does.

If I contribute $5 to a charity I'm doing more than your deity ever does.

If I toss old clothes into the goodwill bin I'm doing more than your deity ever does.

Unless, of course, you can show me where your deity has ever actually done anything.

(August 29, 2011 at 3:07 pm)salty Wrote: People suffering in the body is not the same as choosing to suffer in the soul.

Evidence for that? no? oh well

Quote:Would an explination make you believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ?

In the words of Epicurus:

Quote:"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

So what are you claiming for alleged deity?

(August 29, 2011 at 4:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: So what are you claiming for alleged deity?

Only everything, of course. Just trying to emulate good old Dad.

So, the story goes, the Biblical 'God' character creates evil, and allows it to wreak havoc on his new world, it takes a third of his angels in heaven, & causes the fall of man which effects every living person on the planet till the end of time. Gosh that worked out well.

So then 'God' decides to send his own son, which is really himself, to Earth to be sacrificed to himself in order to correct his own fuck up.

And this makes sense to you?

But lets keep going.

Supposedly this event is the most important event ever, so what does this omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of everything do to assure that his word is clearly disseminated to all of humanity? He appears to a bunch of illiterate superstitious, barbaric Bedouin goat herders, who don't even record these stories until decades (in the case of the OT, centuries) after they allegedly occurred.

The end result? Texts that are internally and externally contradictory, leading to over 30,000 Christian sects. Many with major doctrinal differences. Not to mention, texts that are just plain unbelievable on their face, unless you've been indoctrinated, of course. And not a shred of evidence for ANY of it.

So, then he allows some of us to be born with minds that just won't allow us to believe without being provided with evidence, he knows what sort of evidence each of us will accept yet he fails to provide it to us, and he does this knowing ahead of time that we are destined to be tortured for eternity for a finite thought crime.

He creates a system where billions of people are destined to fail, and being omnipotent and omniscient, he knows all this ahead of time, yet he does it anyway. Does that really look like the actions of an all loving deity to you?

I am so glad that this deity doesn't exist. Too bad so many of his followers do.

Doesnt the bible say god causes us to suffer because we dont obey him salty?

God is mysterious Mr. Moon. Don't judge him, or you'll be thrown in a lake of fire.