(March 1, 2018 at 6:37 pm)Succubus Wrote: Sceptiko and Eben Alexander is as far as I read. The first is highly concentrated woo and as for the second one; his mother should be charged with dope carrying.

I put a few published sources in there too,

(March 1, 2018 at 8:17 pm)orthodox-man Wrote:

(March 1, 2018 at 6:37 pm)Succubus Wrote: Sceptiko and Eben Alexander is as far as I read. The first is highly concentrated woo and as for the second one; his mother should be charged with dope carrying.

I put a few published sources in there too,

near-death.com also doesn't look credible to me. It's too focused on woo as well.

Note about the credible journal sites: It's always good to distinguish between the results of a study, and the interpretations of these results and conclusions drawn. Don't be quick to jump to extraordinary conclusions when the results are yet inconclusive. There may very well be a naturalistic explanation for the apparent vividness of NDEs that has yet to be picked up on (it it hasn't been already).

(March 2, 2018 at 1:01 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(March 1, 2018 at 8:17 pm)orthodox-man Wrote: I put a few published sources in there too,

near-death.com also doesn't look credible to me. It's too focused on woo as well.

Note about the credible journal sites: It's always good to distinguish between the results of a study, and the interpretations of these results and conclusions drawn. Don't be quick to jump to extraordinary conclusions when the results are yet inconclusive. There may very well be a naturalistic explanation for the apparent vividness of NDEs that has yet to be picked up on (it it hasn't been already).

Good point and I agree with you. In some past comments I admitted that: even if we can't explain it doesn't make it supernatural. I still don't get 2 things fully: consistency in hell ndes and the fact that christians tend to report seeing Jesus quite often while people from other faiths don't report seeing as many of their dieties ex: Muhammad or Krishna. However, that may have more to do with conditioning. Anyways, I want to see more studies. If more and more studies keep failing, I will have no choice but to reject my potential thought of afterlife, and I will become atheist.

Orthodox-Man,

I didn't read through the whole thread (I've seen it before) so my apologies if I missed something that has already been posted.

Point 1: In the Christian universe, we are either destined for Heaven or Hell.

Point 2: God is omniscient (all-knowing). That means that even before He created any of us, He already knew what our fate would be.

Point 3: If you were a good God, why would you create a being you KNEW would wind up in Hell in the first place?

Do you see the problem? Hell makes no sense at all. If you end up there, it's a result of you being created by God in the way that you were. Don't even bother crying about free-will. It doesn't matter whether or not you actually have it. God knew where your free-will would lead you before He created you. If you are bound for Hell, who's fault is it?

If God is what Christian mythology says He is, it's all on Him. There is no passing the buck. God made the universe what it is and all the evil in it is on Him.

Once you realize this, your fear should vanish. You should no more fear God and His ridiculous Hell than ghosts or goblins. It's all the invention of human minds in a fearful state. As Carl Sagan said, science is a candle in the dark. Clear-headed thinking will lead you away from such nonsense and free you from fear.

(March 2, 2018 at 2:18 am)orthodox-man Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 1:01 am)Grandizer Wrote: near-death.com also doesn't look credible to me. It's too focused on woo as well.

Note about the credible journal sites: It's always good to distinguish between the results of a study, and the interpretations of these results and conclusions drawn. Don't be quick to jump to extraordinary conclusions when the results are yet inconclusive. There may very well be a naturalistic explanation for the apparent vividness of NDEs that has yet to be picked up on (it it hasn't been already).

Good point and I agree with you. In some past comments I admitted that: even if we can't explain it doesn't make it supernatural. I still don't get 2 things fully: consistency in hell ndes and the fact that christians tend to report seeing Jesus quite often while people from other faiths don't report seeing as many of their dieties ex: Muhammad or Krishna. However, that may have more to do with conditioning. Anyways, I want to see more studies. If more and more studies keep failing, I will have no choice but to reject my potential thought of afterlife, and I will become atheist.

Ok, what have we failed to address with regards to the bolded? I thought it was very clear what the counterarguments were in the other threads you made?

Here's an opinion you won't get on af very often.  I'm not sure what a lost belief in afterlives is supposed to do with atheism.  Why, if a person stopped believing in them, they would suddenly stop believing in gods.  It seems as if "god" is getting the short shrift in this exchange.  Does there have to be an afterlife for there to be a god?  Is the one somehow necessary to the other?  I don't see why.

(March 2, 2018 at 2:18 am)orthodox-man Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 1:01 am)Grandizer Wrote: near-death.com also doesn't look credible to me. It's too focused on woo as well.

Note about the credible journal sites: It's always good to distinguish between the results of a study, and the interpretations of these results and conclusions drawn. Don't be quick to jump to extraordinary conclusions when the results are yet inconclusive. There may very well be a naturalistic explanation for the apparent vividness of NDEs that has yet to be picked up on (it it hasn't been already).

Good point and I agree with you. In some past comments I admitted that: even if we can't explain it doesn't make it supernatural. I still don't get 2 things fully: consistency in hell ndes and the fact that christians tend to report seeing Jesus quite often while people from other faiths don't report seeing as many of their dieties ex: Muhammad or Krishna. However, that may have more to do with conditioning. Anyways, I want to see more studies. If more and more studies keep failing, I will have no choice but to reject my potential thought of afterlife, and I will become atheist.

Christians see Jesus because that expectation is drilled into many of their psyches starting in childhood. Sure, they say that you'll see your lost loved ones - but a young child rarely has many family members that have died.  So many parents and teachers will tell children that the first person you will see after you die is Jesus - and he will welcome you with open arms, he will show you a perfect, glorious place, and he will answer any questions you have. "Going to see Jesus" is a major theme, so it's expected.

(March 2, 2018 at 5:03 am)Khemikal Wrote: Here's an opinion you won't get on af very often.  I'm not sure what a lost belief in afterlives is supposed to do with atheism.  Why, if a person stopped believing in them, they would suddenly stop believing in gods.  It seems as if "god" is getting the short shrift in this exchange.  Does there have to be an afterlife for there to be a god?  Is the one somehow necessary to the other?  I don't see why.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in all religions, the god creates the heaven and hell, so they are linked in their fairytale world.

(February 28, 2018 at 8:50 pm)orthodox-man Wrote: Hello,
I am not an atheist myself (I was raised heavily Greek Orthodox) in a Ukrainian-Romanian family. We are incredbily religious, and my grandfather in fact is a Priest. My parents are hoping I will be the same. For those who do not know, Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, so I am also expected to have children and raise them religious, etc. Recently, I've been having doubts about religion, but fear of hell makes it difficult to let go of the religion.
Everytime I show any signs of skepticism, my friends and family try to prove Christianity at the bear minimum to be correct. I get emails all the time from people showing me how Jesus is the way to eternal pleasure and not following will lead me to torture forever. I recently viewed a few Near Death Experience videos, and they come from Christian sources, they have testimonies of people who went to hell when they were close to death. One Near Death Experience of a woman who crashed her car into another scared me: she had a head on crash, suddenly, felt a feeling of falling, and saw complete blackness. Then she saw these tall demonic looking monsters who took her to some waiting room where she saw them torture other people, beating them up, mocking them, throwing spears at them,  and her hands were bleeding. Suddenly, she found herself in her car, she said she could see the blood on her hands from the hell for about 10 seconds. There are a whole plethora of these testimonies, and the similarities are uncanny. The most common sequence of events: the person having the experience sees darkness, then they see flames and fire, then demonic creatures come who look like reptiles with horns and mock them, beat them up, swear, and they can hear other screams. Then, sometimes the experiencer calls out to God, and a huge hand comes down and pulls them out of the hell, and back to their bodies. I know that these people never actually died, because a near death experience isn't a death experience, I also know the brain is not reliable as a source when it is super stressed and malfunctioning. Not even all of these people were near death during these experiences. Some were on drugs, others were not. You would think different situations would trigger different experiences. It's just that the good majority of hell Near Death Experiences occur in the order I put out. Growing up, I never expected to see demons torturing people in hell, and it seems many people report that. I can't fully explain it. The church and bible do not teach about seeing demons in hell, yet somehow all these people hallucinate that? Anyhow, do these similarities amongst accounts scare any of you? I would just really like to get rid of this whole hell fear.  People in my communities act ad though I should be following these experiences, do you guys think I should be putting this much stock into the experiences?

Relax! Enjoy your short life. Do you get upset over the idea that Santa may put a lump of coal in your stocking! Of course not, because you know your M+D stuff the stockings and Santa is a myth. Just apply the same  to Gods.

(March 2, 2018 at 2:18 am)orthodox-man Wrote:

(March 2, 2018 at 1:01 am)Grandizer Wrote: near-death.com also doesn't look credible to me. It's too focused on woo as well.

Note about the credible journal sites: It's always good to distinguish between the results of a study, and the interpretations of these results and conclusions drawn. Don't be quick to jump to extraordinary conclusions when the results are yet inconclusive. There may very well be a naturalistic explanation for the apparent vividness of NDEs that has yet to be picked up on (it it hasn't been already).

Good point and I agree with you. In some past comments I admitted that: even if we can't explain it doesn't make it supernatural. I still don't get 2 things fully: consistency in hell ndes and the fact that christians tend to report seeing Jesus quite often while people from other faiths don't report seeing as many of their dieties ex: Muhammad or Krishna. However, that may have more to do with conditioning. Anyways, I want to see more studies. If more and more studies keep failing, I will have no choice but to reject my potential thought of afterlife, and I will become atheist.

We can explain NDE's. It is a false perception the person has due to the ignorance of lack of knowledge of how the brain acts under stress while shutting down. 

Your brain is packed with neurons and neurological pathways you have imprinted from life experiences. If you already buy into superstitions and seeing loved ones those beliefs are held like a filing cabinet, even if totally false beliefs. When your brain slowly dies, it is like turning over a filing cabinet and dumping out all the files. If you want to believe you were floating over your body, it isn't that you actually did, it is because someone told you that prior to having that phantom "experience". Hallucinations and the so called "bright light" "experience is due to denying oxygen to the brain. 

NEAR is still the key word, not beyond. If one were to get decapitated or blow their brains out with a shotgun, NOT RECOMMENDED, that person would not have that experience at all. NDE's are false perceptions that only happen when the brain is in tact but dying slowly. Like a dimmer switch on a wall for your light. You can also think of your memories and beliefs as  being like an old 8 millimeter film real jumping off the spool, then nothing. 

It is an "experience" in the same way if you tell a kid at Halloween, that the bowl of covered olives in the dark kitchen at the kids party, are human eyeballs. If you want to believe it badly enough, sure you felt something, but they were olives, not eyeballs.

When your brain dies, you die, that is it, near only means near. If you come out of an event and fully recover with no brain damage, that merely means there was just enough activity during a window to allow for you to come back. But, once enough brain cells are damaged beyond repair you die. 

I watched my own mother die in front of me. It was horrifying to watch, her lips were the last motion I saw in her, and I knew in that last minute, those were the last vestiges of neurons firing only from her brain stem, the "her", the thinking part of her brain, was dead before. There was no her at that point. No soul floated out of her. I loved her very deeply and still miss her to this day. But no old mythology or superstition will cause me to ignore that reality. 

But as much as that pained me to see, and as much as loosing her hurt, I still enjoyed the time we did have while she was alive. I feel no need to buy naked assertions to value the real time we did have together. 

Point being, "NDE's" are superstitions born out of ignorance and a mental placebo due to lack of understanding the real medical reality that is going on in such an event.

It's a false perception, nothing more.

Let me add, if you talk to people of other religions they too will claim "NDE's" but someone in India if they claim to see God will talk about Brahma. If a Muslim from the middle east has one, they will claim to have met Mo or Allah. Buddhist will claim they were almost reincarnated. Japanese will claim they saw their ancestors.

But it is all, no matter where still a misunderstanding of how biologically the brain operates under extreme stress, and or while shutting down at death.