Fear

[purplepurpose]

No matter what religious believer I talk to or watch lectures the same core trend is present - a belief in theory that after we die we become participants in ultimate horror movie or hell for refusing to submit to Gods will. Most hardcore believers just say it bluntly "Submit to Gods will or prepair to suffer". And they say "we bring good news"...

[Astonished]

It's the ultimate cognitive dissonance that doesn't involve denial of scientific reality. Instead, it denies the reality that a good god could not possibly conceive of a hell dimension of any sort for any reason, yet they'll harp on about how lovely and merciful this motherfucker is.

[mordant]

Fundamentalist teachings on hell owe more to Dante's Inferno than to scripture, but it's a popular incentive to belief (or maybe more exactly, against unbelief). It backfires on fundamentalists because it tends to select the vulnerable, fearful, and guilt-able. That's good for retention, bad for healthy interpersonal relations and good decision-making. It doesn't produce responsible leadership material for running their churches.

They don't see the cognitive dissonance because the only way you wouldn't get out of jail free in their mind is to deliberately turn down a free offer. That is exactly how it was presented to me at the tender age of 5 years and 10 months, and it made sense to my not-yet-six-year-old brain. What I was overlooking is that while, as presented, it's free in the sense you don't have to earn it by being good or something, you have to earn it by acknowledging you're wrong and the doctrines are correct, despite that they make zero sense and are entirely unsubstantiated. So all you're giving up is your intellectual integrity, which is the closest thing you have to a soul.

The other thing you're giving up in the freedom to discover a valid, working epistemology to live by. What you get instead is the failed epistemology of religious faith, which does not lead in the general direction of what passes for truth, and neither explains nor predicts experienced outcomes.

[The Valkyrie]

Of course it's a scare tactic.

In the end their "arguments" inevitably devolve into, "You're going to hell!"

[chimp3]

Fear! A great punk rock band in the '80's.

[Astonished]

Fundamentalist teachings on hell owe more to Dante's Inferno than to scripture, but it's a popular incentive to belief (or maybe more exactly, against unbelief). It backfires on fundamentalists because it tends to select the vulnerable, fearful, and guilt-able. That's good for retention, bad for healthy interpersonal relations and good decision-making. It doesn't produce responsible leadership material for running their churches.

They don't see the cognitive dissonance because the only way you wouldn't get out of jail free in their mind is to deliberately turn down a free offer. That is exactly how it was presented to me at the tender age of 5 years and 10 months, and it made sense to my not-yet-six-year-old brain. What I was overlooking is that while, as presented, it's free in the sense you don't have to earn it by being good or something, you have to earn it by acknowledging you're wrong and the doctrines are correct, despite that they make zero sense and are entirely unsubstantiated. So all you're giving up is your intellectual integrity, which is the closest thing you have to a soul.

The other thing you're giving up in the freedom to discover a valid, working epistemology to live by. What you get instead is the failed epistemology of religious faith, which does not lead in the general direction of what passes for truth, and neither explains nor predicts experienced outcomes.

This is why the whole idea of 'freedom of religion' is such a fucking paradox. You're not 'free', your minds are being forcefully warped by parents and community to believe it and to condition you that you want it and to defend it from being attacked or threatened or taken away. So unless you're just genuinely that damn stupid and don't require any indoctrination whatsoever to come to the conclusion that a religious belief is rational or justifiable, you're not practicing religious freedom, you're ignoring the fact that you're a slave.

[KevinM1]

Mmm... Billie Piper....

[Astonished]

LOL, fascinating how religion doesn't really try to use sex as an enticement to join, they might be more effective at recruiting those who weren't brainwashed to begin with.

[mordant]

The other thing you're giving up in the freedom to discover a valid, working epistemology to live by. What you get instead is the failed epistemology of religious faith, which does not lead in the general direction of what passes for truth, and neither explains nor predicts experienced outcomes.

This is why the whole idea of 'freedom of religion' is such a fucking paradox. You're not 'free', your minds are being forcefully warped by parents and community to believe it and to condition you that you want it and to defend it from being attacked or threatened or taken away. So unless you're just genuinely that damn stupid and don't require any indoctrination whatsoever to come to the conclusion that a religious belief is rational or justifiable, you're not practicing religious freedom, you're ignoring the fact that you're a slave.

I hear you, but don't see it as a paradox because what is meant by "religious freedom" is (in theory) the freedom to choose any (ir)religion you wish. Although of course in practice it's the "freedom" to choose THEIR religion as opposed to all the incorrect ones (or that most incorrect of all, no religion).

It is the conceit of fundamentalists that the ONLY reason people don't choose their Truth is because they are deceived by Satan and his minions, sometimes willingly. Time and again their heads explode when presented with the stark fact that people simply DO NOT BELIEVE their fantastical, unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable claims, and do not find the failed epistemology of religious faith effective at predicting or explaining experienced reality. In short, there are many GOOD reasons NOT to believe, it is not simply a matter or ignorance or obstinance or the desire to be libertines. A fundamentalist will only admit for consideration, bad or duplicitous reasons not to believe. And they will only consider unbelievers to be bad AND duplicitous.

[Astonished]

This is why the whole idea of 'freedom of religion' is such a fucking paradox. You're not 'free', your minds are being forcefully warped by parents and community to believe it and to condition you that you want it and to defend it from being attacked or threatened or taken away. So unless you're just genuinely that damn stupid and don't require any indoctrination whatsoever to come to the conclusion that a religious belief is rational or justifiable, you're not practicing religious freedom, you're ignoring the fact that you're a slave.

I hear you, but don't see it as a paradox because what is meant by "religious freedom" is (in theory) the freedom to choose any (ir)religion you wish. Although of course in practice it's the "freedom" to choose THEIR religion as opposed to all the incorrect ones (or that most incorrect of all, no religion).

It is the conceit of fundamentalists that the ONLY reason people don't choose their Truth is because they are deceived by Satan and his minions, sometimes willingly. Time and again their heads explode when presented with the stark fact that people simply DO NOT BELIEVE their fantastical, unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable claims, and do not find the failed epistemology of religious faith effective at predicting or explaining experienced reality. In short, there are many GOOD reasons NOT to believe, it is not simply a matter or ignorance or obstinance or the desire to be libertines. A fundamentalist will only admit for consideration, bad or duplicitous reasons not to believe. And they will only consider unbelievers to be bad AND duplicitous.

You don't see the fact that it's not a choice because it's forced upon them by their agents of indoctrination, i.e. parents/church leaders/other family/community/schools? It's one thing if the parents presented the idea and then shut the fuck up about it and left it up to the kid to do the research and come to their own conclusion, but they don't. There is NO choice in it whatsoever, save for those I mentioned, the hopelessly stupid that require no previous indoctrination to be duped (but I'd wager one of my testes that those are somewhere in the remainder eclipsed by the otherwise 99.999% who are indoctrinated.)