(March 17, 2018 at 1:02 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 12:34 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: You could have abbreviated that to "I don't think," and you would have been entirely correct.  But by all means, continue to dig yourself deeper.   In the Hartle-Hawking model of cosmology, there is no beginning of the universe, and thus no need for any creator or creation event.  That's not a deep philosophical point.  Your complaint was essentially that Hawking didn't have reasons from within his field of expertise upon which to base his position on God, and you have been shown to be wrong on the point under consideration.  I do not need to present any positive case for atheism to demonstrate that your comments about Hawking's atheism were motivated by ignorance.  


I never said nor implied that the Hartle-Hawking model of cosmology was a "slam dunk."  The truth or validity of his model was not the point under debate here.  Your attempt to substitute it for the point under contention is at best an irrelevant obfuscation, and at worst an example of you moving the goalposts  (and given that above you've made the correctness of my prior point contingent upon me providing a "positive case for atheism," then I think I am fully justified in accusing you of the latter).

If you would like to show me where either you or Hawking was making a case of atheism I'm willing to listen.  I never seen him make a particularly strong case; and I don't think that you can just point to a possible theoretical model, and declare Victory!

Quote:This contrasted with his 2010 book The Great Design, in which he said that the idea of God was "not necessary" to explain the origin of the universe as the laws of physics offer enough of an explanation.....Hawking kept speaking about his no-boundary proposal on the creation of the universe at the Vatican even a decade later. "Asking what came before the Big Bang is meaningless because there is no notion of time available to refer to," he said at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 2016."

Newsweek || Did Stephen Hawking Believe in God? What Physicist Said About the Creation of the Universe, 3/14/2018

(March 17, 2018 at 1:02 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

Quote:You could have abbreviated that to "I don't think," and you would have been entirely correct.

I don't' think that such childish jabs start you off well for making an intellectual case for anything.  If you want to take quotes out of context and make childish insults, then you may be better off having a conversation with someone else.

Typical Roady, when pressed on an issue, you tuck your tail between your legs and run.

(March 17, 2018 at 1:30 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 1:02 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: If you would like to show me where either you or Hawking was making a case of atheism I'm willing to listen.  I never seen him make a particularly strong case; and I don't think that you can just point to a possible theoretical model, and declare Victory!


I don't' think that such childish jabs start you off well for making an intellectual case for anything.  If you want to take quotes out of context and make childish insults, then you may be better off having a conversation with someone else.

Typical Roady, when pressed on an issue, you tuck your tail between your legs and run.

Whatever... if you have a childish need to win, then fine.  I concede.  But I still stand behind what I had said.

(March 17, 2018 at 9:06 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

These types of comments by Franklin Graham are made by people who were not good at math, and simply are unwilling to accept that.

(March 17, 2018 at 1:34 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 1:30 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Typical Roady, when pressed on an issue, you tuck your tail between your legs and run.

Whatever... if you have a childish need to win, then fine.  I concede.  But I still stand behind what I had said.

And so he ran away.

(March 17, 2018 at 1:45 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 1:34 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Whatever... if you have a childish need to win, then fine.  I concede.  But I still stand behind what I had said.

And so he ran away.

If you want to discuss the topic... I'm happy to.   If you want to twist things to play a game of gotch ya... then yes I'm stepping away.

(March 17, 2018 at 1:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 1:45 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: And so he ran away.

If you want to discuss the topic... I'm happy to.   If you want to twist things to play a game of gotch ya... then yes I'm stepping away.

You're a piss poor liar. This is the second time I've debated you and both times you begged off on continuing for "reasons."

(March 17, 2018 at 1:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 1:45 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: And so he ran away.

If you want to discuss the topic... I'm happy to.   If you want to twist things to play a game of gotch ya... then yes I'm stepping away.

If I remember correctly, Hawking's comments about atheism were in response to a direct question about his beliefs and he answered honestly, for himself. You're the one who seems to be making the claim that Hawking was speaking about atheism, as a world view, for all atheists. Yet others are twisting things... Yeah, ok.

(March 17, 2018 at 1:59 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 1:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: If you want to discuss the topic... I'm happy to.   If you want to twist things to play a game of gotch ya... then yes I'm stepping away.

If I remember correctly, Hawking's comments about atheism were in response to a direct question about his beliefs and he answered honestly, for himself.

There is nothing wrong with that. I don't deny that he said he was an atheist, nor does he have to give some exposition as to why. However if someone is pointing to his atheism as to some grander indication of what is the objective truth of the matter, then I think it is fair to ask why. Don't you?

Quote:You're the one who seems to be making the claim that Hawking was speaking about atheism, as a world view, for all atheists. Yet others are twisting things... Yeah, ok.

No... I think that you or anyone else for that matter; has the right to speak for yourselves. I often find that I would rather have people let me speak for myself, then trying to argue for me!

On a hopefully lighter note (from Steve Benson, a former Mormon, now atheist):

(March 17, 2018 at 2:20 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 17, 2018 at 1:59 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: If I remember correctly, Hawking's comments about atheism were in response to a direct question about his beliefs and he answered honestly, for himself.

There is nothing wrong with that.  I don't deny that he said he was an atheist, nor does he have to give some exposition as to why. However if someone is pointing to his atheism as to some grander indication of what is the objective truth of the matter, then I think it is fair to ask why.  Don't you?

I don't think anybody claimed that his atheism was some grander indication of what is objective truth of the matter, and I've just gone through the entire thread.

Would you mind quoting where anyone said as much? Otherwise, I'm calling bullshit.