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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 11:14 am
(This post was last modified: March 20, 2018 at 11:19 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 20, 2018 at 11:08 am)Mathilda Wrote: Yet the KCA relies on the reader accepting that it is unequivocal when something begins to exist and that it will have a single cause. If not then you could use it to argue for polytheism.
The kca can;t be used to argue for any gods..because it doesn't contain any. Not one, not ten, none. Nada. Zilch. There is nothing in the KCA about gods.
If p, q. P therefore q. Not..if p q, p therefore goddidit!
-though that is how it plays out in the minds of people who hinge their case for god on it.... because broke brains. Script goes like this...we make an entirely unrelated argument..followed by an invocation of the articles of our faith. We then spend from here to eternity reasserting and arguing over the unrelated argument..thankful that no one calls it, grants the shit..watches us babble about a magic book..and laughs.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 11:19 am
(This post was last modified: March 20, 2018 at 11:21 am by GrandizerII.)
(March 20, 2018 at 11:06 am)polymath257 Wrote: What happens in this definition if time t has no prior times at all? In other words, if time t is the 'first time'?
That would mean even Steve's God had a beginning to its existence (per the definition he provided).
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 11:23 am
(This post was last modified: March 20, 2018 at 12:52 pm by possibletarian.)
(March 20, 2018 at 9:15 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: RoadRunner79 Wrote:What I mean, is that I don't see anyone on the opposing side, making the argument that you are attempting to refute. And I'm glad that you think that snowflakes need a reason, for beginning to exist. I agree. And I'm sorry, but since I'm not making the argument that you are trying to refute, I don't really see the need to go into a number of things that cause a snowflake to form.
Um, snowflakes don't begin to exist. They are a re-arrangement of existing matter. If the sense in which you're using 'begin to exist' includes snowflakes forming, then it includes our universe transforming from a previous state of existence.
I think it's fair to say that a definition of an object can become apparent, in other words there is a point where you would say the water formed into what we would call a snowflake. It's a definition that's realised rather than matter becoming to exist.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 11:32 am
(March 20, 2018 at 11:19 am)Grandizer Wrote: (March 20, 2018 at 11:06 am)polymath257 Wrote: What happens in this definition if time t has no prior times at all? In other words, if time t is the 'first time'?
That would mean even Steve's God had a beginning to its existence (per the definition he provided).
And thereby needs a cause.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 11:34 am
(March 20, 2018 at 11:32 am)polymath257 Wrote: (March 20, 2018 at 11:19 am)Grandizer Wrote: That would mean even Steve's God had a beginning to its existence (per the definition he provided).
And thereby needs a cause.
Which to avoid an infinite regress would need to be a changeless.. timeless........
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 11:36 am
(This post was last modified: March 20, 2018 at 11:36 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Gods god, and god's god's god..so on and so forth.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 11:55 am
(March 20, 2018 at 11:09 am)polymath257 Wrote: (March 20, 2018 at 10:40 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Off hand, I don't think I have an issue (although perhaps I still prefer the classical vocabulary). I may have to think about it a bit; if there is a way this may be misunderstood, before committing to it. In the KCA I think the focus is going from !A to A; so, perhaps begin to exist is better in that case.
One aspect of this is that there have to be *times* when !A happens and when A is the case. So both !A and A happen at some time. In other words, time is required for the argument.
Where you not arguing a moment ago, that time had a beginning? And also that time is related to physical matter? I thought that I was going to agree on this.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 12:13 pm
(March 20, 2018 at 11:55 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (March 20, 2018 at 11:09 am)polymath257 Wrote: One aspect of this is that there have to be *times* when !A happens and when A is the case. So both !A and A happen at some time. In other words, time is required for the argument.
Where you not arguing a moment ago, that time had a beginning? And also that time is related to physical matter? I thought that I was going to agree on this.
I mentioned the possibility that time had a beginning in the sense that it may not be possible to extend the time variable backwards past a certain point. This is the case, for example, in general relativity as applied to the universe as a whole.
That said, it is not known whether time had a beginning or not. When quantum mechanical effects are brought in, it is possible for the 'singularity' that prevents the time variable from being extended is smoothed out and for time to go infinitely into the past.
As far as we know, whenever there was time, there was mass, energy, and space.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 12:17 pm
(This post was last modified: March 20, 2018 at 12:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-If- time had a beginning...and that beginning of time coincides with..say, the bb....then there was a never a prior time t that the universe did not exist. Ergo it did not begin to exist in the sense important or relevant to the thread (or argument). Ergo it does not have a cause, in the sense important to the thread or argument..... for the reasons stated in the thread......or argument.
-If- there was some prior time t.....and the universe existed in some form but not this form prior to that time t...then whatever caused the change in state between t- and t+ is a proximate..rather than ultimate, cause.
-If- there was some prior time t and nothing existed in any form prior to that time t.....then nothing..................
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 20, 2018 at 12:25 pm
(March 20, 2018 at 12:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote: -If- time had a beginning...and that beginning of time coincides with..say, the bb....then there was a never a prior time t that the universe did not exist. Ergo it did not begin to exist in the sense important or relevant to the thread (or argument). Ergo it does not have a cause, in the sense important to the thread or argument..... for the reasons stated in the thread......or argument.
-If- there was some prior time t.....and the universe existed in some form but not this form prior to that time t...then whatever caused the change in state between t- and t+ is a proximate..rather than ultimate, cause.
Precisely. If matter, energy, and space are co-terminous with time, then there was never a time when there was no matter. So, there was not a *progression* from !matter to matter. So, once again, the KCA argument fails.
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