(March 22, 2018 at 10:52 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 22, 2018 at 10:13 pm)Losty Wrote: I don’t agree that you can’t become unattracted to someone. I was attracted to a guy until he started talking about his love for trump and then he suddenly became ick to me.

Yeah. I don't think you're lying to yourself by no longer being attracted to a Trumptard lol.

I think you can become unattracted to someone. I just question in some cases whether it's genuine. I don't think "They used to have a penis" is anything but being in denial and recoiling for transphobic reasons.

I mean, imagine if one day far into the future.... sex change operations became so perfect that you could literally swap the person's DNA atom for atom with lasers and even their cromosones changed... so going from a man to a woman biologically is such a perfect transistion that the resulting adult is biologically identical to a woman born a woman... INCLUDING cromosones.

If there are still people in that reality, getting turned off "But BEFORE THEIR ATOMS AND DNA CHANGED THEY USED TO HAVE MALE D.N.A AND A PENIS!"..... then I strongly suspect the genuineness of such a recoiling. If they're literally identical mentally and physically to a biological female, they're a perfect copy, who cares what they used to be, no one can even make the "low quality artifical vagina" argument now. They'd even be able to give birth like a normal biological female the transituation would be so perfect. I can't see "Ew! they used to have a penis!" in that reality as anything other than being motivated at least subonsciously by transphobia. And I don't see how any of the differences in this reality with its imperfect trasisitoning, makes any difference, if the transistion was concvincing enough that the person found them very attractive until they knew where they'd come from. It's not like they're a bad person or a Trump supporter, it's like they had a different set of genitals in the past, so what? Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with not being attracted to penises, but to not be attracted to someone *because* they have a penis is different to me. I'm not attracted to guys because I happen to not like guys or penises. But I am not unattracted to guys BECAUSE they're guys or BECAUSE they have penises. It's not like I think there's anything wrong with them being a guy or having a penis. I just don't find it hot. I'm entirely open to the possibily of one day finding a guy with a penis I did find hot. I wouldn't pretend otherwise if I felt it.

Here's another example.... imagine a man who had a happy marriage and amazing sex life and was deeply in love with a woman for 30 years.... and it was one of the happiest marriages you could imagine. And neither of them wanted kids. Imagine that, magically, 30 years into the marriage they still find each other highly physically sexually attractive and they find each other's personalities incredibly hot too (I say "magically" because since when are 30 year long marrigages that spicy!. Hehe. That's a joke lol)..... but imagine then suddenly one day, at the peak of their passion.... the husband discovers that the wife actually had a sex change operation at 18 shortly before he met her..... and he suddenly recoiled and was like "Yuck you used to have a penis! I can't believe you used to have a penis and used to be a dude. I can't possibily find you attractive anymore!" and he runs off into the sunlight hiding his spicy boner and crying fake tears, and then he goes off and tells his friends how disgusting she is and how she's a dude.

I strongly suspect that guy would be a transphobe lol. Even without all the transphobic comments I added and made him say and how he behaved. Simply from the fact that there's no way he could have possibly been genuinely turned off after all that.

Now, maybe someone might have felt betratyed for not being told after all those years, and found betrayal a turn off. But that's another topic. And for what it's worth, I don't think it's a betrayal. I don't think being trans or cis is relevant.

Anyways, you know me, I'm not going to see it any other way.

For what it's worth... to repeat: If someone somehow *is* genuinely no longer attracted after learning that someone 'used to have a penis' (even that sounds transphobic to me because the transperson doesn't identity with the man that had a penis that they never felt like they were. They always felt like a woman with a woman's body so they never had a penis. Hence the transition. They physically became who they always were. They never had a penis. That body that they couldn't identify with had one before they transitioned into their true selves)...... if someone is no longer attracted after learning that..... genuinely. Then I don't think that's transphobic of them. No one is transphobic or bigoted or anything like that, for being attracted or not attracted to anything. We can't control what we're attracted to and that can't be bigoted. What I suspect is that such a person in those cases isn't genuinely no longer attracted even if they think they are, and that they are in fact in denial because the person who is actually appearing to them is the exact same person that they just found attractive before discovering some information that isn't a negative quality and isn't related to who they are now... I am really not convinced that it's genuine. I think that if someone really discovers WHY they recoil about the genitals someone USED to have, even AFTER they've fucked the artifical genitals that felt exactly as good to them as the real thing, and they'd never been able to tell the difference if no one had told them that the person used to have the opposite genitals.... if they discovered WHY they recoil at that info... it would be motivated by nothing by bigotry.

I think we both know that I'm not going to be able to see it any other way.... hehe. It just all makes sense to me.

Oh right, so yeah, to repeat: If anyone really is genuinely no longer attracted after discovering what genitals someone used to have, then that's not bigoted at all. I just don't believe them and no one is the absolute authority on their own urges, a lot of these things can be repressed.

Oh yeah the other thing I wanted to repeat was that I agree that no one has to stay attracted and people can become unattracted. I just am suspicious if someone pretends to no longer be attracted when they still are.

When you were no longer attracted to someone because you discovered they like Trump...... I really don't think you were pretending hehe. That's 100% genuine hehe. Trump lovers are not sexy. I might puke on a girl if I came in her and she then said "Do you like Trump? because I love trump." She'd get puke on her tits.

I bolded the parts I want to talk about.

I disagree that a trans male to female person never had a penis.  Just for the simple fact that they did, and they use the penis to create the vagina after removing the testicles that the person also has.

I think there's different levels to sexual attraction and depending on how you look at it different arguments can work.

If you're talking about raw primitive sexual attraction in my opinion it's safe to say there's some subconscious level of attraction between any straight people who have ovaries and sperm, and even beyond that sexual attraction towards any representation that there's a possibility of the ovaries and sperm being around.  
A straight man will have some level of attraction towards a rubber vagina, a cartoon drawing of one, pixels on a screen, whatever it is. Even if the sexual attraction is as low level as eyes being drawn to look at it due to primitive sexual interest.   

When people are talking about their expressed level of sexual attraction and their romantic relationships on the other hand, then conscious ideas have to be taken into consideration.  And I think that's even too simple because really it's how conscious ideas and primitive instincts combine.
At this level you can say people are un attracted to someone based on some kind of information, there's no pretending involved, but the conscious repulsion has mitigated subconscious desires so there's no longer any real expression of sexual attraction anymore.

As to whether it's transphobic or whether I'm a transphobe I'll have to put more thought into it because I have to head out now.

That's a low bar to hit , comparing yourself with someone that has psychologycal disorders. In need of feeling superior much?

(March 23, 2018 at 10:47 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: That's a low bar to hit , comparing yourself with someone that has psychologycal disorders. In need of feeling superior much?

Are you implying that people with psychological disorders are somehow feeble and damaged, and shouldn't be compared to 'regular' folks?  

Didn't you just condescendingly do the same thing he did in your rebuke?

(March 23, 2018 at 10:19 am)Shell B Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 10:11 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: Its the whole "don't think about pink elephants" thing. You can't just tell someone to not think about something. I mean, duh. It's in the brain or it's not. I don't have any control over that baseline of bubbling constant thoughts, and neither does anyone else.

Exactly this.

Hammy, I'm surprised, especially considering that you've diagnosed yourself with OCD, that you would suggest "just not thinking about something." Why would it work for sexual relationships if it doesn't work for anything else?

I read a book about CBT one time. Well I read part of it. But one of the main points was when you tell yourself "Stop thinking about that. Stop thinking about that." it doesn't help because when you tell yourself that, you are necessarily thinking about what you don't want to think about. It's particularly bad when you start feeling guilty about not being able to stop thinking about whatever it is. It's better to accept it and not judge yourself. When you do that, often those thoughts seem to lessen. I've had minimal or no intrusive thoughts for most of my life, but I've found this works well with other thoughts I don't particularly want to have.

But yeah you don't really have control over your thoughts.

(March 23, 2018 at 10:42 am)Shell B Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 10:36 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: The irony of saying I didn't grasp basic thought experiments while not even understanding the pink elephant metaphor is razor sharp. I doubt you'll really avoid talking to me. Half my responses on this forum seem to come from you. I think you like me, deep down. I'm who you'd like to be, confident, social, good with women, athletic, educated and smart. I spend all my time outside and am never depressed.

You seem to think an awful lot about yourself. I thought you didn't like thinking about dicks?

In case he hasn't noticed, I don't tend to be an asshole towards non-assholes. But he tends to be a dick towards everyone.... and certainly to me. I guess he wants my asshole.

(March 23, 2018 at 10:51 am)The Industrial Atheist Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 10:19 am)Shell B Wrote: Exactly this.

Hammy, I'm surprised, especially considering that you've diagnosed yourself with OCD, that you would suggest "just not thinking about something." Why would it work for sexual relationships if it doesn't work for anything else?

I read a book about CBT one time. Well I read part of it. But one of the main points was when you tell yourself "Stop thinking about that. Stop thinking about that." it doesn't help because when you tell yourself that, you are necessarily thinking about what you don't want to think about. It's particularly bad when you start feeling guilty about not being able to stop thinking about whatever it is. It's better to accept it and not judge yourself. When you do that, often those thoughts seem to lessen. I've had minimal or no intrusive thoughts for most of my life, but I've found this works well with other thoughts I don't particularly want to have.

But yeah you don't really have control over your thoughts.

It's actually what makes OCD so difficult. You have to learn to just have the thought. The more you try to fight it, the worse it gets.

(March 23, 2018 at 10:49 am)wallym Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 10:47 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: That's a low bar to hit , comparing yourself with someone that has psychologycal disorders. In need of feeling superior much?

Are you implying that people with psychological disorders are somehow feeble and damaged, and shouldn't be compared to 'regular' folks?  

Didn't you just condescendingly do the same thing he did in your rebuke?

No and no. I'm not in the mood to deal with your frustration, I would have criticized him no matter the situation.

(March 23, 2018 at 10:44 am)paulpablo Wrote: I disagree that a trans male to female person never had a penis.  Just for the simple fact that they did

WOW! What an incredible argument /sarcasm

The point is "they", their identity, is not the same thing as their body. The self is the personality, and their personality didn't match a penis, nor did their personality "have a penis", the body that inhabited their personality did. And there was a sense in which it wasn't a body that was truly theirs, it was merely a body they inhabited. They felt like a stranger in that body, and that is the dysphoria that transpeople experience that you do not seem to grasp.

Quote:If you're talking about raw primitive sexual attraction in my opinion it's safe to say there's some subconscious level of attraction between any straight people who have ovaries and sperm, and even beyond that sexual attraction towards any representation that there's a possibility of the ovaries and sperm being around.  
A straight man will have some level of attraction towards a rubber vagina, a cartoon drawing of one, pixels on a screen, whatever it is. Even if the sexual attraction is as low level as eyes being drawn to look at it due to primitive sexual interest.   

Again though, we're not talking about rubber vaginas or poor imitations of vaginas. We're talking about artifical vaginas so convincing and attached to people so convincing that you literally wouldn't know the difference if you were ever told that there was one.

You could be more attracted to them than any other ciswoman, simply because they look like a very attractive ciswoman and you're unable to tell the difference. The fact you'd start thinking about what they were rather than what they are (or as I said, it wasn't really them that was that way before, it was the body they felt like a stranger inside).... and what has that got to do with anything? If you continue to look at the transwoman and find their personality and body to be just as attractive as before you knew they were trans.... the fact that you can't stop thinking about penises and the penis that is no longer relevant.... says nothing about your repulsion to them and everything about your repulsion to your obsession with penises and thinking about a specific penis you've never seen outside your own imagination, and has absolutely nothing to do with the person you're still attracted to, but pretending not to be, because you can't stop thinking about penises. If a repulsion to penis gets away with your being mindful of a person you're still attracted to for all the exact same reasons as before, then that's not the same thing as actually no longer being attracted to them.

Quote:When people are talking about their expressed level of sexual attraction and their romantic relationships on the other hand, then conscious ideas have to be taken into consideration.

Into consideration, exactly. Rather than treated as an absolute authority. It's perfectly possible for us to be wrong about our likes, dislikes, urges and desires. Or, to be more clear, to think that we like or dislike or have different urges to we in fact do. It's perfectly possible to be driven by X and think we're driven by Y. Or to be repulsed by X and think we're replulsed by Y. In my argument, someone is repulsed by X where X is penises, and they think that means they are repulsed by Y, and Y is the transperson that they are attracted to, and has absolutely nothing to with X. The fact they can't stop thinking about X because some sort of repulsion has been triggered in them (and my suspicion is that the reasons it's been triggered are transphobic. However natural. Hell, racism and homophobia are natural too)... has nothing to do with Y.

Quote:At this level you can say people are un attracted to someone based on some kind of information, there's no pretending involved, but the conscious repulsion has mitigated subconscious desires so there's no longer any real expression of sexual attraction anymore.

What makes you think there's no pretending involved, if we're talking about someone being attracted to Y and then getting turned off by X and then drawing an non-sequtitur that that means they don't like Y, when X has nothing to do with Y (hence the non-sequitur)?

Now, pretending might be the wrong word, because like I said, I reckon people often genuinely believe they are no longer attracted, but they are mistaken about that and they still are, because the very thing they aren't attracted to has absolutely nothing to do with the person they are attracted to.

But often if someone searches deeply enough with a truly open mind they are able to discover their own self-deceptions, so that's why I sometimes use the word "pretending" because there's a difference between something being completely unconscious and something being subconscious, something being conscious on such a low level that they're still aware of it but to a very very little extent. I mean, in many cases they were fully conscious of it a very long time ago, and then it became a habit and automatic and their awareness of it became buried. For example... people often have a homophobic or transphobic unbringing and then later in life learn that those things are wrong, but that doesn't mean that they don't still have homophobic and transphobic habits left over that they're no longer aware of.

And in many cases, even when people were originally aware of it, they weren't aware that it was wrong, or WHY it was wrong, which is why they had to learn why it was long later on. But that doesn't mean their isn't a bigoted residue hanging around down there able to be analysed.

(March 23, 2018 at 10:43 am)Hammy Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 10:36 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: It is a problem. Thats why i limit my interneting to the few places that aren't full of dicks.

And yet everywhere you go, there you are.

The mere fact that people think that penises has absolutely anything to do with people without penises, should show how little sense it is to think that you're not attracted to someone without a penis because penises are out there elsewhere or were out there elsewhere. The very association of transwomen with penises alludes to bigotry and phobia. We're not talking about a transwoman who hasn't had a genital operation and still has a penis, we're not even talking about a transwoman with an unconvincing artiifical vagina... we're talking about a transwoman with a completely convincing artificial vagina so convincing that you'd never know the difference if you were never told she'd never have an operation, but if you are told you think about penises and mistakenly think that means you aren't attracted to the woman anymore, because, oh noes "yuck she used to be a dude". What kind of a reaction is that other than evidence of what your mind is really thinking about the kind of person you REALLY are? (a bigot).

Like I've said before, if people really are genuinely no longer turned on... then they're not bigots or transphobic. But I've listed my reasons for why I don't believe they are no longer attractive and why they are mistaken about what they think they feel, and how it makes no sense because they're not actually addressing what they think they're addressing, and it's something else they're unattracted to, not the transwoman.

It's not like on closer inspection afterwards you look at the transwoman and then spot male features and are no longer attracted. That wouldn't be transphobic at all. But if you continue to look at them and you still can't see any male features and you STILL find them attractive.... and then you think that the fact they used to have a penis means you don't.... the question is why are you deluded like that and what is driving that delusion?

I wonder if some of this is that some of us can just say 'no thanks', and that's not a big deal.  That the idea of finding an attractive woman we enjoy being around to be in a relationship with isn't some magical once in a lifetime, maybe never event, so when we look at some hypothetical baggage like this we can just take a pass because we know we could go find someone else.

If the choice was this person and nobody ever, it'd be a different decision.  Then I'd start rationalizing using the arguments your making.  Well, it's not a penis anymore.  And it looks like a normal vagina.  It's an unrealistic hypothetical about a different version of me, so who knows where I'd end up.

(March 23, 2018 at 10:36 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: The irony of saying I didn't grasp basic thought experiments while not even understanding the pink elephant metaphor is razor sharp. I doubt you'll really avoid talking to me. Half my responses on this forum seem to come from you. I think you like me, deep down. I'm who you'd like to be, confident, social, good with women, athletic, educated and smart. I spend all my time outside and am never depressed.

Lol come on Cap, you can't say stuff like that. That's a bit harsh.